37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 1285440 |
Time | |
Date | 201507 |
Local Time Of Day | 0601-1200 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | SAN.Airport |
State Reference | CA |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Make Model Name | Large Transport |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | Initial Approach |
Route In Use | Vectors STAR LYNDI3 |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Function | Pilot Not Flying First Officer |
Qualification | Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP) |
Person 2 | |
Function | Captain Pilot Flying |
Qualification | Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP) |
Events | |
Anomaly | ATC Issue All Types Deviation - Altitude Undershoot Deviation - Procedural Published Material / Policy |
Narrative:
We were arriving in san on the LYNDI3 RNAV arrival and the controller took us off the arrival with vectors and altitude and speed instructions. We followed her instructions and repeated them back each time she gave them to us. She never put us back on the arrival; but instead cleared us to the RNAV runway 27 approach fix and cleared us to 4;000 feet. She cleared us direct vydda; descend to 4;000 feet; cleared RNAV 27 approach. I repeated 'direct vydda; descend to 4;000 feet; cleared RNAV 27'. We were in perfectly clear skies and could see all ground objects. We both noted that the clearance brought us pretty low; but our flight path took us clear of any terrain. At about 4;200 feet the controller contacted us with an urgent request to immediately climb back to 5;000 feet and maintain 5;000 feet. We stopped our descent and climbed back to 5;000 feet and maintained constant clearance of all terrain and objects. We both looked at the approach plate again and noticed that vydda crossing restriction was 4;000+; so we assumed that the controller screwed-up and descended us to 4;000 feet a little too early or that our descent rate was faster than she had predicted. Since we were off the arrival and under her control; and since vydda crossing restriction was 4;000+; we felt we could accept her clearance to 4;000 feet. We felt this was a controller error. Within a few seconds of climbing back to 5;000 feet she once again cleared us for the approach. Please note that the controller seemed very stressed at the time and seemed to be struggling with traffic issues; which is why she took us off the arrival and vectored us in the first place.I believe the event was a controller mistake due to heavy workload. She was trying to time the traffic for the approach and took us off the arrival with vectors; altitude; and speed instructions. As we got closer and closer to the airport; she could no longer put us back on the arrival; so she cleared us for the approach and descend to 4;000 feet; but apparently she gave us the 4;000 foot altitude too early and we descended below the MDA briefly before passing the constraint line. At no time was the aircraft in danger of hitting the obstacles as we maintained clear visual separation at all times.in this case; I'm not sure what we as pilots could have done differently. We were no longer on the arrival and were following controller instructions. We are trained that when flying in foreign countries; especially south and central america; that we must check all MDA's and know that those controllers will descend you and it is up to you to determine if that is a safe altitude. But in USA; we are told our controllers will not descend you below the MDA and that we can trust our controller instructions. Even so; I checked the approach and noticed that we were allowed to 4000+ for vydda intersection; so once again; we accepted the clearance. I believe this was a controller error.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: A Controller cleared an air carrier crew to 4;000 feet on SAN LYNDI THREE RNAV arrival and then issued a terrain alert with a clearance back to 5;000 feet. The crew suspected a SCT Controller error.
Narrative: We were arriving in SAN on the LYNDI3 RNAV arrival and the controller took us off the arrival with vectors and altitude and speed instructions. We followed her instructions and repeated them back each time she gave them to us. She never put us back on the arrival; but instead cleared us to the RNAV RWY 27 approach fix and cleared us to 4;000 feet. She cleared us direct VYDDA; descend to 4;000 feet; cleared RNAV 27 approach. I repeated 'direct VYDDA; descend to 4;000 feet; cleared RNAV 27'. We were in perfectly clear skies and could see all ground objects. We both noted that the clearance brought us pretty low; but our flight path took us clear of any terrain. At about 4;200 feet the controller contacted us with an urgent request to immediately climb back to 5;000 feet and maintain 5;000 feet. We stopped our descent and climbed back to 5;000 feet and maintained constant clearance of all terrain and objects. We both looked at the approach plate again and noticed that VYDDA crossing restriction was 4;000+; so we assumed that the controller screwed-up and descended us to 4;000 feet a little too early or that our descent rate was faster than she had predicted. Since we were off the arrival and under her control; and since VYDDA crossing restriction was 4;000+; we felt we could accept her clearance to 4;000 feet. We felt this was a controller error. Within a few seconds of climbing back to 5;000 feet she once again cleared us for the approach. Please note that the controller seemed very stressed at the time and seemed to be struggling with traffic issues; which is why she took us off the arrival and vectored us in the first place.I believe the event was a controller mistake due to heavy workload. She was trying to time the traffic for the approach and took us off the arrival with vectors; altitude; and speed instructions. As we got closer and closer to the airport; she could no longer put us back on the arrival; so she cleared us for the approach and descend to 4;000 feet; but apparently she gave us the 4;000 foot altitude too early and we descended below the MDA briefly before passing the constraint line. At no time was the aircraft in danger of hitting the obstacles as we maintained clear visual separation at all times.In this case; I'm not sure what we as pilots could have done differently. We were no longer on the arrival and were following controller instructions. We are trained that when flying in foreign countries; especially South and Central America; that we must check all MDA's and know that those controllers will descend you and it is up to you to determine if that is a safe altitude. But in USA; we are told our controllers will NOT descend you below the MDA and that we can trust our controller instructions. Even so; I checked the approach and noticed that we were allowed to 4000+ for VYDDA intersection; so once again; we accepted the clearance. I believe this was a controller error.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.