Narrative:

Flight was an instructional flight with a commercially rated pilot working toward his CFI rating. This was his second flight toward the CFI rating. I was the CFI and PIC for this flight. I obtained a weather briefing for the 2 hour local flight using 1800wxbrief.com. I observed student perform a thorough walk-around the aircraft. Student told me he had obtained a weather briefing that morning.we started the engine. Student taxied; did runup check; and performed two full stop taxi back landings with nothing unusual. After third takeoff we heard a warning horn; we thought the gear did not retract. On downwind for third landing; the nose gear indicator light did not illuminate. We tried recycling the landing gear; still no nose gear down indication. I tried to twist and pull the nose gear indicator light out to switch it with another gear indicator light; but the green lens cover came off. After several minutes of trying; I finally pried the light out of the socket with my pencil and fingernail. This would have been a major problem if I had been single-pilot. I'm not sure I would ever be able to get the broken light out if I had to fly the plane at the same time. Tried one of the main gear indicator lights in the nose gear socket and still no positive nose gear down indication. At that point we went to our practice area to troubleshoot. I took the controls for the remainder of the flight.we went to the practice area and the student opened the flight manual to the emergency gear extension procedure; and read the checklist while I performed each task. We did this checklist procedure several times with no success. We tried slowing the aircraft and performing high yaw maneuvers with no success; as well as diving high g maneuvers as suggested in the airplane flying handbook. Then we decided to fly by the ZZZ tower and asked them if our nose gear appeared to be down or not. We performed a low approach at ZZZ and tower told us the gear did not appear to be down. We retracted the gear and went back to the practice area. As we were returning to the practice area; a news helicopter told the tower our nose gear was half extended. So we understood this to mean our nose gear was not extending properly nor was it retracting properly.on the way to the practice area again; I asked the student to call/text our flight operations for any advice. He told us 'may the lord be with you' and I am not sure that was very helpful. We also spoke on the radio with one of our mechanics; and we came to the conclusion we are just going to have to land at ZZZ with the nose gear in an intermediate position. So we returned to ZZZ; and told the tower of our dilemma. Tower asked us how many 'souls' we have on board. I would have preferred a different word. Tower was otherwise very helpful to us; by telling a plane that was requesting close traffic to go someplace else because of our [situation].we returned to ZZZ and the emergency vehicles were waiting for us. We tried doing three bounced landings first to see if that would jar the nose gear down; to no avail. We knew the next time would be a power off landing. So we extended our downwind while student secured all flight bags and everything in the rear and reviewed the checklist. Student thought of something which was very helpful; he moved his seat all the way back. This would have helped him avoid injury and also help me get out faster in the event of a real crash. We both tightened our seat belts and informed tower we were on our way back; and were cleared for landing on 10L.approach was normal; we were given a wind check about 2 miles out that was about 140 at 10 gusting to 15 (I don't remember exactly but I'm sure this was fairly close). Student opened the door at my request. I intended to touch down about 1/3 down the runway. At about 500 feet altitude; I pulled the mixture to idle cut off; closed the throttle; turned off the magnetos; and closed the fuel selector valve. Student turned off the master switch like I asked him to. He also held a seat cushion in front of himself just before touch down.I noticed the plane was dropping faster than I was used to when practicing the power off 180 maneuver with the engine running and throttle closed. The propeller continued windmilling. I was doing about 85 mph IAS at the time I cut the mixture. I was slowed down to about 70 mph IAS as I was entering my flare. I held the nose off the ground for what seemed like forever. Had the elevator all the way back and was pulling back so tightly that my arms ached that night. Drifted slightly to the left of centerline after my left wheel barely touched down first; it turned the airplane off to the left a few degrees. We skidded down the runway and what seemed like an hour later came to a complete stop. Did not have directional control while skidding on the runway!student removed his seat belt; exited the plane immediately after we came to a complete stop; and stood on the wing and offered his hand to me to help me out. I removed my seat belt; reached for the keys (but stopped myself when I realized nobody is going to start the engine with the propeller in its current position on the runway); retracted the flaps; and exited the plane as quickly as I could. It turns out the student's idea to bring his seat all the way back helped my exit significantly; as it would have been difficult to bring his seat back when the airplane was angled nose down on the runway. Emergency crews arrived at the plane within seconds of our final stop. Looking at the [local video] of our approach; it appears the nose gear was twisted slightly. Mechanics could not immediately find any problem with it. I think it might have been caused by some kind of catching the nose gear doors; but I am just guessing. But we did have two successful takeoff and landing cycles prior to the nose gear failure; with nothing abnormal in those cycles.since the flight; I have had several discussions with other instructors. Now I question the wisdom of trying the bounced landings first. This procedure is not mentioned in the flight manual or the FAA's airplane flying handbook. The benefit one would get from it (possibly getting a green light) does not outweigh the risks (possible landing gear collapse or screwing up the bounce and crashing or getting a prop strike). I was taught this procedure by two different instructors independently when I was obtaining my commercial and flight instructor ratings. In fact; my commercial instructor had me practice one-wheel bounces in a C-172 just to practice for landing gear failures. I believe that from now on I will advise my students against it.I will also encourage my students to not spend quite so much time in the practice area troubleshooting. Once or twice through the checklist should be enough. Also; there is no need to fly by the tower; without the green light the landing won't be any different anyway; regardless of what it looks like to the tower. I did hear an interesting idea afterwards; that is to do a stall in the airplane in the practice area while holding down the emergency gear extension lever. I suppose it wouldn't hurt; the risk of anything bad happening are low. With the way the nose gear on the PA-28R-200 extends; the spring is more likely to fully extend the gear at lower airspeeds; as in a stall.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: PA28 flight instructor reported landing with the nose landing gear not fully extended after repeated attempts to extend it.

Narrative: Flight was an instructional flight with a commercially rated pilot working toward his CFI rating. This was his second flight toward the CFI rating. I was the CFI and PIC for this flight. I obtained a weather briefing for the 2 hour local flight using 1800wxbrief.com. I observed student perform a thorough walk-around the aircraft. Student told me he had obtained a weather briefing that morning.We started the engine. Student taxied; did runup check; and performed two full stop taxi back landings with nothing unusual. After third takeoff we heard a warning horn; we thought the gear did not retract. On downwind for third landing; the nose gear indicator light did not illuminate. We tried recycling the landing gear; still no nose gear down indication. I tried to twist and pull the nose gear indicator light out to switch it with another gear indicator light; but the green lens cover came off. After several minutes of trying; I finally pried the light out of the socket with my pencil and fingernail. This would have been a major problem if I had been single-pilot. I'm not sure I would ever be able to get the broken light out if I had to fly the plane at the same time. Tried one of the main gear indicator lights in the nose gear socket and still no positive nose gear down indication. At that point we went to our practice area to troubleshoot. I took the controls for the remainder of the flight.We went to the practice area and the student opened the Flight Manual to the emergency gear extension procedure; and read the checklist while I performed each task. We did this checklist procedure several times with no success. We tried slowing the aircraft and performing high yaw maneuvers with no success; as well as diving high g maneuvers as suggested in the Airplane Flying Handbook. Then we decided to fly by the ZZZ tower and asked them if our nose gear appeared to be down or not. We performed a low approach at ZZZ and tower told us the gear did not appear to be down. We retracted the gear and went back to the practice area. As we were returning to the practice area; a news helicopter told the tower our nose gear was half extended. So we understood this to mean our nose gear was not extending properly nor was it retracting properly.On the way to the practice area again; I asked the student to call/text our Flight Operations for any advice. He told us 'May the Lord be with you' and I am not sure that was very helpful. We also spoke on the radio with one of our mechanics; and we came to the conclusion we are just going to have to land at ZZZ with the nose gear in an intermediate position. So we returned to ZZZ; and told the tower of our dilemma. Tower asked us how many 'souls' we have on board. I would have preferred a different word. Tower was otherwise very helpful to us; by telling a plane that was requesting close traffic to go someplace else because of our [situation].We returned to ZZZ and the emergency vehicles were waiting for us. We tried doing three bounced landings first to see if that would jar the nose gear down; to no avail. We knew the next time would be a power off landing. So we extended our downwind while student secured all flight bags and everything in the rear and reviewed the checklist. Student thought of something which was very helpful; he moved his seat all the way back. This would have helped him avoid injury and also help me get out faster in the event of a real crash. We both tightened our seat belts and informed tower we were on our way back; and were cleared for landing on 10L.Approach was normal; we were given a wind check about 2 miles out that was about 140 at 10 gusting to 15 (I don't remember exactly but I'm sure this was fairly close). Student opened the door at my request. I intended to touch down about 1/3 down the runway. At about 500 feet altitude; I pulled the mixture to idle cut off; closed the throttle; turned off the magnetos; and closed the fuel selector valve. Student turned off the master switch like I asked him to. He also held a seat cushion in front of himself just before touch down.I noticed the plane was dropping faster than I was used to when practicing the power off 180 maneuver with the engine running and throttle closed. The propeller continued windmilling. I was doing about 85 mph IAS at the time I cut the mixture. I was slowed down to about 70 mph IAS as I was entering my flare. I held the nose off the ground for what seemed like forever. Had the elevator all the way back and was pulling back so tightly that my arms ached that night. Drifted slightly to the left of centerline after my left wheel barely touched down first; it turned the airplane off to the left a few degrees. We skidded down the runway and what seemed like an hour later came to a complete stop. Did not have directional control while skidding on the runway!Student removed his seat belt; exited the plane immediately after we came to a complete stop; and stood on the wing and offered his hand to me to help me out. I removed my seat belt; reached for the keys (but stopped myself when I realized nobody is going to start the engine with the propeller in its current position on the runway); retracted the flaps; and exited the plane as quickly as I could. It turns out the student's idea to bring his seat all the way back helped my exit significantly; as it would have been difficult to bring his seat back when the airplane was angled nose down on the runway. Emergency crews arrived at the plane within seconds of our final stop. Looking at the [local video] of our approach; it appears the nose gear was twisted slightly. Mechanics could not immediately find any problem with it. I think it might have been caused by some kind of catching the nose gear doors; but I am just guessing. But we did have two successful takeoff and landing cycles prior to the nose gear failure; with nothing abnormal in those cycles.Since the flight; I have had several discussions with other instructors. Now I question the wisdom of trying the bounced landings first. This procedure is not mentioned in the Flight Manual or the FAA's Airplane Flying Handbook. The benefit one would get from it (possibly getting a green light) does not outweigh the risks (possible landing gear collapse or screwing up the bounce and crashing or getting a prop strike). I was taught this procedure by two different instructors independently when I was obtaining my commercial and flight instructor ratings. In fact; my commercial instructor had me practice one-wheel bounces in a C-172 just to practice for landing gear failures. I believe that from now on I will advise my students against it.I will also encourage my students to not spend quite so much time in the practice area troubleshooting. Once or twice through the checklist should be enough. Also; there is no need to fly by the tower; without the green light the landing won't be any different anyway; regardless of what it looks like to the tower. I did hear an interesting idea afterwards; that is to do a stall in the airplane in the practice area while holding down the emergency gear extension lever. I suppose it wouldn't hurt; the risk of anything bad happening are low. With the way the nose gear on the PA-28R-200 extends; the spring is more likely to fully extend the gear at lower airspeeds; as in a stall.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.