<< >> NASA ASRS Report 166372, December 1990

Miscom between air carrier medium large transport flight crew and ground controller about the necessity to observe the ILS hold short requirement.

Attributes
ACN	166372
Time
Date	199012
Day	Sun
Local Time Of Day	1201 To 1800
Place
Locale Reference	airport : bna
State Reference	TN
Altitude	agl bound lower : 0 agl bound upper : 0
Environment
Flight Conditions	IMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : avl
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng
Flight Phase	ground : holding ground other : taxi
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp pilot : cfi
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 10500 flight time type : 6000
ASRS Report	166372
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : instrument pilot : commercial
Events
Anomaly	incursion : runway
Independent Detector	other controllera
Resolutory Action	none taken : detected after the fact
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Ambiguous
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation

Narrative:

Told by ground control to taxi runway 2L and we did. Holding short of runway 2L at the hold short line, the tower after some delay informed us to taxi into position runway 2L and said, 'by the way, I know you know, but next time hold short of the ILS critical area.' we both never heard any instructions to hold short of the ILS critical area nor was any mention of the area being protected on the ATIS. Somewhere in the ambiguity of ILS critical areas, either controllers need be informed as when these areas are active and inform pilots to hold short or inform pilots to always hold short at the ILS critical areas unless instructed to do otherwise. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information. Callback to airport manager's office initiated to determine if hold point for ILS critical area was depicted with signs and or paint markings on taxiway. Representative for airport indicated that signs (lighted) and markings were indeed in place, and that the airport had recently passed the far part 139 certifications for signs and markings.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: MISCOM BETWEEN ACR MLG FLC AND GND CTLR ABOUT THE NECESSITY TO OBSERVE THE ILS HOLD SHORT REQUIREMENT.

Narrative: TOLD BY GND CTL TO TAXI RWY 2L AND WE DID. HOLDING SHORT OF RWY 2L AT THE HOLD SHORT LINE, THE TWR AFTER SOME DELAY INFORMED US TO TAXI INTO POS RWY 2L AND SAID, 'BY THE WAY, I KNOW YOU KNOW, BUT NEXT TIME HOLD SHORT OF THE ILS CRITICAL AREA.' WE BOTH NEVER HEARD ANY INSTRUCTIONS TO HOLD SHORT OF THE ILS CRITICAL AREA NOR WAS ANY MENTION OF THE AREA BEING PROTECTED ON THE ATIS. SOMEWHERE IN THE AMBIGUITY OF ILS CRITICAL AREAS, EITHER CTLRS NEED BE INFORMED AS WHEN THESE AREAS ARE ACTIVE AND INFORM PLTS TO HOLD SHORT OR INFORM PLTS TO ALWAYS HOLD SHORT AT THE ILS CRITICAL AREAS UNLESS INSTRUCTED TO DO OTHERWISE. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO. CALLBACK TO ARPT MGR'S OFFICE INITIATED TO DETERMINE IF HOLD POINT FOR ILS CRITICAL AREA WAS DEPICTED WITH SIGNS AND OR PAINT MARKINGS ON TXWY. REPRESENTATIVE FOR ARPT INDICATED THAT SIGNS (LIGHTED) AND MARKINGS WERE INDEED IN PLACE, AND THAT THE ARPT HAD RECENTLY PASSED THE FAR PART 139 CERTIFICATIONS FOR SIGNS AND MARKINGS.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.