Unnecessary avoidance of a visual target.

Attributes
ACN	271382
Time
Date	199405
Day	Sat
Local Time Of Day	1801 To 2400
Place
Locale Reference	airport : lga
State Reference	NY
Altitude	msl bound lower : 4000 msl bound upper : 5000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Dusk
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : n90
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B727 Undifferentiated or Other Model
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	Other
Flight Phase	cruise other descent other
Flight Plan	IFR
Aircraft 2
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	ATR 42
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	Other
Flight Phase	climbout : intermediate altitude cruise other
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	other other : other pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 10000 flight time type : 2000
ASRS Report	271382
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : instrument pilot : commercial
Events
Anomaly	conflict : airborne less severe other anomaly other
Independent Detector	aircraft equipment other aircraft equipment : unspecified other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	flight crew : took evasive action
Consequence	Other
Miss Distance	horizontal : 2000 vertical : 100
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation

Narrative:

Our aircraft on descent to 4000 ft, our speed approximately 190 KTS. Leaving approximately 5000 ft. Advised by new york approach that an ATR 42 had us visual, was at 3500 ft, and would climb above us maintaining visual contact and separation. We acknowledged ATR 42 would be 12 O'clock to us (did not see ATR 42). Within 1 min or less, ATR 42 shown on TCASII nearing couple of mi and less than 1000 ft separation. Didn't 'feel' right! Same time saw gear pod mounted lights and aircraft at 12 O'clock little below about 1 - 1 1/2 mi. ATR 42 at about 10 degrees bank increased to about 20-25 degrees bank. We started left bank 10-20 degrees as TCASII turned yellow, 'TA' with voice 'traffic.' in few seconds, TCASII went to 'RA' with 'descend, monitor vertical speed.' we leveled at 3700 ft just after the ATR 42 purred past. The event was not 'immediate' but one of those with enough time to realize it was not right and the ATR 42 would have very possibly 'nose to nosed to us.' advised ATC frequency 'that didn't work' followed by my advising we were '300 ft low on TCASII deviation,' returning to 4000 ft. Nothing said further to incident by ATC or ATR 42. Shortly after, given right turn visual to runway 31, lga. As passenger deplaned, both flight attendants and passenger asked 'how close that little airplane was?!' we were honest, told it calmly like it was and apologized for any uncomfortable feelings. Thoughts: 1) never liked 'VFR visual separation in IFR environment.' further review 'aim' indicates only 1 aircraft must see other (bad) but must be past aircraft conflict. 2) TCASII worked but causes a real 'mind-action' pulling when you see traffic as well as have TCASII alert blaring at your ears and wanting to 'monitor vertical speed' when your traffic is in sight 'out' -- your ivsi is 'in,' and everyone is fixed 'out' on a silent 'oh...' moment. 3) procedure stinks -- is another example of FAA trying to squeeze more into unavailable airspace. 4) don't believe ATC asked us to see traffic first and asked crew who said not as well.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: UNNECESSARY AVOIDANCE OF A VISUAL TARGET.

Narrative: OUR ACFT ON DSCNT TO 4000 FT, OUR SPD APPROX 190 KTS. LEAVING APPROX 5000 FT. ADVISED BY NEW YORK APCH THAT AN ATR 42 HAD US VISUAL, WAS AT 3500 FT, AND WOULD CLB ABOVE US MAINTAINING VISUAL CONTACT AND SEPARATION. WE ACKNOWLEDGED ATR 42 WOULD BE 12 O'CLOCK TO US (DID NOT SEE ATR 42). WITHIN 1 MIN OR LESS, ATR 42 SHOWN ON TCASII NEARING COUPLE OF MI AND LESS THAN 1000 FT SEPARATION. DIDN'T 'FEEL' RIGHT! SAME TIME SAW GEAR POD MOUNTED LIGHTS AND ACFT AT 12 O'CLOCK LITTLE BELOW ABOUT 1 - 1 1/2 MI. ATR 42 AT ABOUT 10 DEGS BANK INCREASED TO ABOUT 20-25 DEGS BANK. WE STARTED L BANK 10-20 DEGS AS TCASII TURNED YELLOW, 'TA' WITH VOICE 'TFC.' IN FEW SECONDS, TCASII WENT TO 'RA' WITH 'DSND, MONITOR VERT SPD.' WE LEVELED AT 3700 FT JUST AFTER THE ATR 42 PURRED PAST. THE EVENT WAS NOT 'IMMEDIATE' BUT ONE OF THOSE WITH ENOUGH TIME TO REALIZE IT WAS NOT RIGHT AND THE ATR 42 WOULD HAVE VERY POSSIBLY 'NOSE TO NOSED TO US.' ADVISED ATC FREQ 'THAT DIDN'T WORK' FOLLOWED BY MY ADVISING WE WERE '300 FT LOW ON TCASII DEV,' RETURNING TO 4000 FT. NOTHING SAID FURTHER TO INCIDENT BY ATC OR ATR 42. SHORTLY AFTER, GIVEN R TURN VISUAL TO RWY 31, LGA. AS PAX DEPLANED, BOTH FLT ATTENDANTS AND PAX ASKED 'HOW CLOSE THAT LITTLE AIRPLANE WAS?!' WE WERE HONEST, TOLD IT CALMLY LIKE IT WAS AND APOLOGIZED FOR ANY UNCOMFORTABLE FEELINGS. THOUGHTS: 1) NEVER LIKED 'VFR VISUAL SEPARATION IN IFR ENVIRONMENT.' FURTHER REVIEW 'AIM' INDICATES ONLY 1 ACFT MUST SEE OTHER (BAD) BUT MUST BE PAST ACFT CONFLICT. 2) TCASII WORKED BUT CAUSES A REAL 'MIND-ACTION' PULLING WHEN YOU SEE TFC AS WELL AS HAVE TCASII ALERT BLARING AT YOUR EARS AND WANTING TO 'MONITOR VERT SPD' WHEN YOUR TFC IS IN SIGHT 'OUT' -- YOUR IVSI IS 'IN,' AND EVERYONE IS FIXED 'OUT' ON A SILENT 'OH...' MOMENT. 3) PROC STINKS -- IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF FAA TRYING TO SQUEEZE MORE INTO UNAVAILABLE AIRSPACE. 4) DON'T BELIEVE ATC ASKED US TO SEE TFC FIRST AND ASKED CREW WHO SAID NOT AS WELL.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.