37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 339125 |
Time | |
Date | 199606 |
Day | Fri |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : lax |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 2500 msl bound upper : 2500 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | Marginal |
Light | Dusk |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : lax |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | MD-80 Series (DC-9-80) Undifferentiated or Other Model |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | Other Other |
Flight Phase | descent : approach landing other |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : cfi |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 80 flight time total : 11000 flight time type : 7000 |
ASRS Report | 339125 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : atp pilot : cfi pilot : instrument |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 5500 flight time type : 200 |
ASRS Report | 339754 |
Events | |
Anomaly | non adherence : clearance other anomaly other other spatial deviation |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance flight crew : became reoriented other |
Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
Situations | |
ATC Facility | procedure or policy : unspecified |
Airport | other physical facility |
Narrative:
Arrival into lax from smo heading 070 degrees descending to 2500 ft MSL. WX is typical evening haze beginning to form at 2500 ft but VFR through the haze. At about 5 DME east of smo I hear ATC give missed approach instructions to an air carrier. 'Heading 360 degrees climb to 3500 ft.' this interests me because I am descending through 3500 ft and am north of the airport. ATC then asks if I can take the visual from my present position. Obviously ATC is trying to work out a conflict. The visual approach west of harbor freeway would be high but do- able. Due to time constraints and my focus on potential problem in front of me I do not ask the first officer if he can see the airport (we could see it previously). I accept the visual approach, turn to parallel harbor freeway west. I call for gear and pull the nose up to begin slowing so I can go to full flaps. Speed is approximately 200 KIAS. Then I look toward the airport. Not only is the airport obscured by the sun in hazy, but the hazy is starting to turn cloudy. My first thought is to find the runway, no, I can't see it through the hazy. Then I'll use smo 084 degree radial (stadium visual) to make the turn to final for runway 24R. But, I am inside harbor freeway so radial will not be correct. Then I think of telling ATC our problem, but there is constant chatter on frequency, no time to wait for a break for ATC help. I am on my own. I check the ADF and note it is almost parallel to final approach. I start the turn but shoot through the localizer. ATC notices us and calls a turn to avoid further incursion into south runway and approachs. I am at 45 degree bank, flaps 28 degrees to slow and tighten radius of turn. After rollout on final and below hazy layer, airport is clear and we land normally. There are lots of potential 'I could have...' the only one that counts is to turn to parallel to runway 24R until getting below the hazy layer. To not have accepted the visual could have caused further problems for ATC (we must work together to make this system work). The core problem is that there are too many aircraft and not enough airports/runways. Visual approachs allow the system to work. The traffic is so dense that any disruptions immediately cause other disruptions. If anything goes wrong, it all falls apart. The real solution is enough facilities so ATC and pilots aren't forced into these sits. Check your files, I'll bet my situation has occurred before -- frequently. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: the reporter stated he was flying an MD80. When asked what he would do differently he stated he would turn west and then move on to the centerline rather than parallel the harbor freeway. The reporter did not entertain the idea of telling the controller he did not have the airport in sight and request an ILS.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: RPTR IN AN ATTEMPT TO ACCOMMODATE A CTLR PREDICAMENT ACCEPTS A VISUAL APCH TO A RWY 24R. HE HAD THE ARPT IN SIGHT ON DOWNWIND BUT WHEN TURNING INTO THE SUN THE HAZE AND STRATUS OBSCURED THE ARPT. THE CTLR OBSERVING THE RPTR OVERSHOOT THE FINAL TURN VECTORED HIM BACK ON COURSE.
Narrative: ARR INTO LAX FROM SMO HDG 070 DEGS DSNDING TO 2500 FT MSL. WX IS TYPICAL EVENING HAZE BEGINNING TO FORM AT 2500 FT BUT VFR THROUGH THE HAZE. AT ABOUT 5 DME E OF SMO I HEAR ATC GIVE MISSED APCH INSTRUCTIONS TO AN ACR. 'HDG 360 DEGS CLB TO 3500 FT.' THIS INTERESTS ME BECAUSE I AM DSNDING THROUGH 3500 FT AND AM N OF THE ARPT. ATC THEN ASKS IF I CAN TAKE THE VISUAL FROM MY PRESENT POS. OBVIOUSLY ATC IS TRYING TO WORK OUT A CONFLICT. THE VISUAL APCH W OF HARBOR FREEWAY WOULD BE HIGH BUT DO- ABLE. DUE TO TIME CONSTRAINTS AND MY FOCUS ON POTENTIAL PROB IN FRONT OF ME I DO NOT ASK THE FO IF HE CAN SEE THE ARPT (WE COULD SEE IT PREVIOUSLY). I ACCEPT THE VISUAL APCH, TURN TO PARALLEL HARBOR FREEWAY W. I CALL FOR GEAR AND PULL THE NOSE UP TO BEGIN SLOWING SO I CAN GO TO FULL FLAPS. SPD IS APPROX 200 KIAS. THEN I LOOK TOWARD THE ARPT. NOT ONLY IS THE ARPT OBSCURED BY THE SUN IN HAZY, BUT THE HAZY IS STARTING TO TURN CLOUDY. MY FIRST THOUGHT IS TO FIND THE RWY, NO, I CAN'T SEE IT THROUGH THE HAZY. THEN I'LL USE SMO 084 DEG RADIAL (STADIUM VISUAL) TO MAKE THE TURN TO FINAL FOR RWY 24R. BUT, I AM INSIDE HARBOR FREEWAY SO RADIAL WILL NOT BE CORRECT. THEN I THINK OF TELLING ATC OUR PROB, BUT THERE IS CONSTANT CHATTER ON FREQ, NO TIME TO WAIT FOR A BREAK FOR ATC HELP. I AM ON MY OWN. I CHK THE ADF AND NOTE IT IS ALMOST PARALLEL TO FINAL APCH. I START THE TURN BUT SHOOT THROUGH THE LOC. ATC NOTICES US AND CALLS A TURN TO AVOID FURTHER INCURSION INTO S RWY AND APCHS. I AM AT 45 DEG BANK, FLAPS 28 DEGS TO SLOW AND TIGHTEN RADIUS OF TURN. AFTER ROLLOUT ON FINAL AND BELOW HAZY LAYER, ARPT IS CLR AND WE LAND NORMALLY. THERE ARE LOTS OF POTENTIAL 'I COULD HAVE...' THE ONLY ONE THAT COUNTS IS TO TURN TO PARALLEL TO RWY 24R UNTIL GETTING BELOW THE HAZY LAYER. TO NOT HAVE ACCEPTED THE VISUAL COULD HAVE CAUSED FURTHER PROBS FOR ATC (WE MUST WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE THIS SYS WORK). THE CORE PROB IS THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY ACFT AND NOT ENOUGH ARPTS/RWYS. VISUAL APCHS ALLOW THE SYS TO WORK. THE TFC IS SO DENSE THAT ANY DISRUPTIONS IMMEDIATELY CAUSE OTHER DISRUPTIONS. IF ANYTHING GOES WRONG, IT ALL FALLS APART. THE REAL SOLUTION IS ENOUGH FACILITIES SO ATC AND PLTS AREN'T FORCED INTO THESE SITS. CHK YOUR FILES, I'LL BET MY SIT HAS OCCURRED BEFORE -- FREQUENTLY. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: THE RPTR STATED HE WAS FLYING AN MD80. WHEN ASKED WHAT HE WOULD DO DIFFERENTLY HE STATED HE WOULD TURN W AND THEN MOVE ON TO THE CTRLINE RATHER THAN PARALLEL THE HARBOR FREEWAY. THE RPTR DID NOT ENTERTAIN THE IDEA OF TELLING THE CTLR HE DID NOT HAVE THE ARPT IN SIGHT AND REQUEST AN ILS.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.