37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 340907 |
Time | |
Date | 199607 |
Day | Thu |
Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : lax |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 7600 msl bound upper : 8000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : lax |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Commercial Fixed Wing |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | Other Other |
Flight Phase | descent : approach |
Route In Use | arrival other arrival star : star |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 100 flight time total : 18000 flight time type : 800 |
ASRS Report | 340907 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : instrument pilot : commercial |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : excursion from assigned altitude non adherence : published procedure other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other controllera |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance other |
Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
Narrative:
We were flying the civet arrival into lax to intercept the ILS runway 25L at arnes. We were told that we were cleared for the approach at arnes. We crossed arnes at 10000 ft and began flying the localizer and GS at that point. There are published altitudes for suzzi, fuelr, downe, honda, and limma shown on the approach page, but apparently the GS does not match these altitudes. We crossed suzzi and fuelr approximately 200-300 ft below the published altitudes with the aircraft precisely on the localizer and GS. Just inside fuelr the controller told us we were supposed to be at 8000 ft over fuelr instead of 7000 ft. That surprised us because our altimeter read 7600 ft at the time, and we had no intention of being over fuelr at 7000 ft because we had already passed fuelr at 7800 ft on the GS. We leveled briefly and crossed all other fixes at the published altitudes, but our instruments showed high on the GS. ATC gave us a number to call after landing. I called ATC by telephone and was informed that the crossing altitudes could not be lowered just because the GS showed us high, and that 'cleared for the approach' does not mean the GS can be flown. This is certainly contrary to what I believed to be true. They also informed me the GS is only good for 18 NM which is 5 NM inside fuelr. These things have never been brought out clearly in 30 yrs of flying.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: CAPT OF ACR MISUNDERSTOOD PROC ON THE ILS RWY 25L APCH AT LAX AND FLEW ON THE GS MISSING 2 XING RESTRS.
Narrative: WE WERE FLYING THE CIVET ARR INTO LAX TO INTERCEPT THE ILS RWY 25L AT ARNES. WE WERE TOLD THAT WE WERE CLRED FOR THE APCH AT ARNES. WE CROSSED ARNES AT 10000 FT AND BEGAN FLYING THE LOC AND GS AT THAT POINT. THERE ARE PUBLISHED ALTS FOR SUZZI, FUELR, DOWNE, HONDA, AND LIMMA SHOWN ON THE APCH PAGE, BUT APPARENTLY THE GS DOES NOT MATCH THESE ALTS. WE CROSSED SUZZI AND FUELR APPROX 200-300 FT BELOW THE PUBLISHED ALTS WITH THE ACFT PRECISELY ON THE LOC AND GS. JUST INSIDE FUELR THE CTLR TOLD US WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE AT 8000 FT OVER FUELR INSTEAD OF 7000 FT. THAT SURPRISED US BECAUSE OUR ALTIMETER READ 7600 FT AT THE TIME, AND WE HAD NO INTENTION OF BEING OVER FUELR AT 7000 FT BECAUSE WE HAD ALREADY PASSED FUELR AT 7800 FT ON THE GS. WE LEVELED BRIEFLY AND CROSSED ALL OTHER FIXES AT THE PUBLISHED ALTS, BUT OUR INSTS SHOWED HIGH ON THE GS. ATC GAVE US A NUMBER TO CALL AFTER LNDG. I CALLED ATC BY TELEPHONE AND WAS INFORMED THAT THE XING ALTS COULD NOT BE LOWERED JUST BECAUSE THE GS SHOWED US HIGH, AND THAT 'CLRED FOR THE APCH' DOES NOT MEAN THE GS CAN BE FLOWN. THIS IS CERTAINLY CONTRARY TO WHAT I BELIEVED TO BE TRUE. THEY ALSO INFORMED ME THE GS IS ONLY GOOD FOR 18 NM WHICH IS 5 NM INSIDE FUELR. THESE THINGS HAVE NEVER BEEN BROUGHT OUT CLRLY IN 30 YRS OF FLYING.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.