Flight crew violates minimum altitude over fuelr intersection during arrival into lax.

Attributes
ACN	343470
Time
Date	199608
Day	Thu
Local Time Of Day	1801 To 2400
Place
Locale Reference	airport : lax
State Reference	CA
Altitude	msl bound lower : 8000 msl bound upper : 8000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : lax
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B757 Undifferentiated or Other Model
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	Other Other
Flight Phase	descent : approach descent other
Route In Use	arrival other
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time total : 16500
ASRS Report	343470
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 185 flight time total : 5900 flight time type : 2000
ASRS Report	343477
Events
Anomaly	altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met non adherence : clearance non adherence : published procedure
Independent Detector	other controllera
Resolutory Action	none taken : detected after the fact
Consequence	faa : investigated
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	Pilot Deviation

Narrative:

Received notification from cincinnati chief pilot's office on aug/mon/96 of alleged altitude deviation on aug/thu/96, on arrival into lax. Flew civet arrival, runway 25L ILS approach after arnes intersection. Arrival and approach flown in accordance with published procedures and no mention of altitude deviation was ever made to cockpit crew by any controller during arrival, approach or after landing. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter was very surprised that any allegation of improperly flown approach was made. He was aware of what to look for so that a proper approach would be made. He briefed the first officer and everyone was alerted to altitude crossing. He was even more surprised that no one mentioned an altitude deviation in the air or on the ground. He feels strongly, nothing wrong occurred. He was asked the question of a controller clearing an aircraft for an approach with the phrase 'comply with all altitude restrs,' how that would alert him to comply with altitude restrs. His reply was that it would be helpful, however, he was already alerted to any problems regarding this particular approach. Supplemental information from acn 343477: approach was flown as published, setting stepdown altitudes for each fix in altitude window. No mention of altitude violation was made by approach or tower. In reviewing the approach, I honestly feel that no violation occurred. Callback conversation with reporter acn 343477 revealed the following information: reporter was very surprised to be notified that their approach into lax violated a minimum altitude. He stated he was briefed by the captain and all altitudes were complied with throughout the approach. He was asked the question that, if given the following advisory from an approach controller, 'comply with all altitude restrs,' would that emphasize the importance of altitude restrs. He stated emphatically that it would. Once again though, he felt positive that the approach in question was flown properly.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: FLC VIOLATES MINIMUM ALT OVER FUELR INTXN DURING ARR INTO LAX.

Narrative: RECEIVED NOTIFICATION FROM CINCINNATI CHIEF PLT'S OFFICE ON AUG/MON/96 OF ALLEGED ALTDEV ON AUG/THU/96, ON ARR INTO LAX. FLEW CIVET ARR, RWY 25L ILS APCH AFTER ARNES INTXN. ARR AND APCH FLOWN IN ACCORDANCE WITH PUBLISHED PROCS AND NO MENTION OF ALTDEV WAS EVER MADE TO COCKPIT CREW BY ANY CTLR DURING ARR, APCH OR AFTER LNDG. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR WAS VERY SURPRISED THAT ANY ALLEGATION OF IMPROPERLY FLOWN APCH WAS MADE. HE WAS AWARE OF WHAT TO LOOK FOR SO THAT A PROPER APCH WOULD BE MADE. HE BRIEFED THE FO AND EVERYONE WAS ALERTED TO ALT XING. HE WAS EVEN MORE SURPRISED THAT NO ONE MENTIONED AN ALTDEV IN THE AIR OR ON THE GND. HE FEELS STRONGLY, NOTHING WRONG OCCURRED. HE WAS ASKED THE QUESTION OF A CTLR CLRING AN ACFT FOR AN APCH WITH THE PHRASE 'COMPLY WITH ALL ALT RESTRS,' HOW THAT WOULD ALERT HIM TO COMPLY WITH ALT RESTRS. HIS REPLY WAS THAT IT WOULD BE HELPFUL, HOWEVER, HE WAS ALREADY ALERTED TO ANY PROBS REGARDING THIS PARTICULAR APCH. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 343477: APCH WAS FLOWN AS PUBLISHED, SETTING STEPDOWN ALTS FOR EACH FIX IN ALT WINDOW. NO MENTION OF ALT VIOLATION WAS MADE BY APCH OR TWR. IN REVIEWING THE APCH, I HONESTLY FEEL THAT NO VIOLATION OCCURRED. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR ACN 343477 REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR WAS VERY SURPRISED TO BE NOTIFIED THAT THEIR APCH INTO LAX VIOLATED A MINIMUM ALT. HE STATED HE WAS BRIEFED BY THE CAPT AND ALL ALTS WERE COMPLIED WITH THROUGHOUT THE APCH. HE WAS ASKED THE QUESTION THAT, IF GIVEN THE FOLLOWING ADVISORY FROM AN APCH CTLR, 'COMPLY WITH ALL ALT RESTRS,' WOULD THAT EMPHASIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF ALT RESTRS. HE STATED EMPHATICALLY THAT IT WOULD. ONCE AGAIN THOUGH, HE FELT POSITIVE THAT THE APCH IN QUESTION WAS FLOWN PROPERLY.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.