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S80 aircraft flight crew receives departure instructions that seem to contradict proper procedure out of dfw.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 353710 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199611 |
| Day | Thu |
| Local Time Of Day | 0001 To 0600 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | atc facility : dfw |
| State Reference | TX |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Night |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : dfw |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | MD-80 Series (DC-9-80) Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Flight Phase | climbout : intermediate altitude |
| Route In Use | enroute : on vectors |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| ASRS Report | 353710 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : instrument pilot : commercial |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe other anomaly other |
| Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | none taken : anomaly accepted |
| Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
| Supplementary | |
| Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
| Air Traffic Incident | other |
Narrative:
Time: BB00. ATC frequency: 126.55/118.55. ATC facility: dfw tower and departure control. Location: dfw runway 35R departure corridor. We were issued takeoff clearance from runway 35L at dfw with instructions to turn right to 10 degrees and maintain visual separation with the departing aircraft in front of us. After departure, with the aircraft in sight, we were turned over to departure. Departure issued a turn for the aircraft in front of us, then shortly thereafter issued a turn to 80 degrees for us. While no further mention of visual separation was given, we still had the aircraft in sight. They then turned the other aircraft to a 180 degree? Heading and issued a turn to 100 degrees for us with intercept instructions for the departure radial. While we were on the 100 degree heading and the aircraft in front of us was turning 180 degree?, we received a TA from TCASII. The lead aircraft at that point questioned the controller as to our position and the controller told him that we had him visually and were maintaining visual separation with him. It is my understanding that the subsequent heading changes after departure superseded the initial instruction to maintain visual separation. I called the tower and they confirmed that the assigned headings did supersede the visual clearance. It was confusing to believe we were on an assigned heading and then hear that we were maintaining visual separation with no further instructions to do so. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter was confused over having a vector to fly and yet hearing he was maintaining a visual separation. He checked with his company chief pilot and was told he couldn't have it both ways, which is what he suspected. Conversation with tower also agreed with this statement from his company. He also stated that if the controller had given each aircraft an altitude limit during the climb, it would have put him more at ease in realizing the controller was providing IFR separation.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: S80 ACFT FLC RECEIVES DEP INSTRUCTIONS THAT SEEM TO CONTRADICT PROPER PROC OUT OF DFW.
Narrative: TIME: BB00. ATC FREQ: 126.55/118.55. ATC FACILITY: DFW TWR AND DEP CTL. LOCATION: DFW RWY 35R DEP CORRIDOR. WE WERE ISSUED TKOF CLRNC FROM RWY 35L AT DFW WITH INSTRUCTIONS TO TURN R TO 10 DEGS AND MAINTAIN VISUAL SEPARATION WITH THE DEPARTING ACFT IN FRONT OF US. AFTER DEP, WITH THE ACFT IN SIGHT, WE WERE TURNED OVER TO DEP. DEP ISSUED A TURN FOR THE ACFT IN FRONT OF US, THEN SHORTLY THEREAFTER ISSUED A TURN TO 80 DEGS FOR US. WHILE NO FURTHER MENTION OF VISUAL SEPARATION WAS GIVEN, WE STILL HAD THE ACFT IN SIGHT. THEY THEN TURNED THE OTHER ACFT TO A 180 DEG? HDG AND ISSUED A TURN TO 100 DEGS FOR US WITH INTERCEPT INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE DEP RADIAL. WHILE WE WERE ON THE 100 DEG HDG AND THE ACFT IN FRONT OF US WAS TURNING 180 DEG?, WE RECEIVED A TA FROM TCASII. THE LEAD ACFT AT THAT POINT QUESTIONED THE CTLR AS TO OUR POSITION AND THE CTLR TOLD HIM THAT WE HAD HIM VISUALLY AND WERE MAINTAINING VISUAL SEPARATION WITH HIM. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THE SUBSEQUENT HDG CHANGES AFTER DEP SUPERSEDED THE INITIAL INSTRUCTION TO MAINTAIN VISUAL SEPARATION. I CALLED THE TWR AND THEY CONFIRMED THAT THE ASSIGNED HDGS DID SUPERSEDE THE VISUAL CLRNC. IT WAS CONFUSING TO BELIEVE WE WERE ON AN ASSIGNED HDG AND THEN HEAR THAT WE WERE MAINTAINING VISUAL SEPARATION WITH NO FURTHER INSTRUCTIONS TO DO SO. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR WAS CONFUSED OVER HAVING A VECTOR TO FLY AND YET HEARING HE WAS MAINTAINING A VISUAL SEPARATION. HE CHKED WITH HIS COMPANY CHIEF PLT AND WAS TOLD HE COULDN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, WHICH IS WHAT HE SUSPECTED. CONVERSATION WITH TWR ALSO AGREED WITH THIS STATEMENT FROM HIS COMPANY. HE ALSO STATED THAT IF THE CTLR HAD GIVEN EACH ACFT AN ALT LIMIT DURING THE CLB, IT WOULD HAVE PUT HIM MORE AT EASE IN REALIZING THE CTLR WAS PROVIDING IFR SEPARATION.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.