An air carrier flight crew have difficulty determining if they were cleared for an approach and they...

Attributes
ACN	354678
Time
Date	199612
Day	Sun
Local Time Of Day	1801 To 2400
Place
Locale Reference	airport : mso
State Reference	MT
Altitude	msl bound lower : 9000 msl bound upper : 10000
Environment
Flight Conditions	IMC
Light	Night
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : geg
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng
Flight Phase	descent : approach landing other other
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 9700 flight time type : 500
ASRS Report	354678
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Events
Anomaly	non adherence : far non adherence : published procedure other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	controller : issued new clearance flight crew : returned to intended course or assigned course
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	ATC Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	other
Situations
ATC Facility	procedure or policy : unspecified

Narrative:

We were inbound to missoula and because this was the captain's first time in there we had to shoot the full approach to runway 11 and we asked for the ILS 11. The controller told us to fly direct to the missoula VOR at 10000 ft and report establish on the outbound course. Once we were established outbound on the 293 degree radial I reported (we were established outbound and the controller acknowledged our report with a 'roger'). On the approach, once you established outbound you can come down to 9000 ft MSL. I told the controller we were leaving 10000 ft for 9000 ft, he acknowledged roger. Within a few mins he said maintain 10000 ft unable to issue approach clearance, another air carrier was on the VOR DME C approach to missoula. We climbed back up to 10000 ft then he issued a holding instruction to hold northwest of kona NDB, that was all he gave us for holding instruction. What we needed was more instruction to hold at kona NDB, a radial a off VOR, a localizer course, a bearing off kona NDB, something to hold by, and efc time. After asking several times we finally got the proper holding instruction hold northwest of kona NDB inbound on the localizer course, efc time 2305. What I'm concerned about it took several mins to get the proper hold instruction while we were flying at a low altitude in the mountains. For the period of time we had no idea what that controller wanted us to do. Finally we entered the hold, was issued the approach clearance for the ILS runway 11 at missoula mont. Everything from then on went smoothly. Also the crew was approaching a 14 hour duty day. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: the reporter said that he had not heard from the company or the FAA since he had reported this event. His primary interest was to have the controller be a little more standard in his procedures. The reporter said that he was tired, but the controller seemed more so.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: AN ACR FLC HAVE DIFFICULTY DETERMINING IF THEY WERE CLRED FOR AN APCH AND THEY STARTED TO DSND, AND THE CTLR TELLS THEM TO RETURN TO ALT. LATER THE CTLR ISSUES INCOMPLETE HOLDING INSTRUCTIONS.

Narrative: WE WERE INBOUND TO MISSOULA AND BECAUSE THIS WAS THE CAPT'S FIRST TIME IN THERE WE HAD TO SHOOT THE FULL APCH TO RWY 11 AND WE ASKED FOR THE ILS 11. THE CTLR TOLD US TO FLY DIRECT TO THE MISSOULA VOR AT 10000 FT AND RPT ESTABLISH ON THE OUTBOUND COURSE. ONCE WE WERE ESTABLISHED OUTBOUND ON THE 293 DEG RADIAL I RPTED (WE WERE ESTABLISHED OUTBOUND AND THE CTLR ACKNOWLEDGED OUR RPT WITH A 'ROGER'). ON THE APCH, ONCE YOU ESTABLISHED OUTBOUND YOU CAN COME DOWN TO 9000 FT MSL. I TOLD THE CTLR WE WERE LEAVING 10000 FT FOR 9000 FT, HE ACKNOWLEDGED ROGER. WITHIN A FEW MINS HE SAID MAINTAIN 10000 FT UNABLE TO ISSUE APCH CLRNC, ANOTHER ACR WAS ON THE VOR DME C APCH TO MISSOULA. WE CLBED BACK UP TO 10000 FT THEN HE ISSUED A HOLDING INSTRUCTION TO HOLD NW OF KONA NDB, THAT WAS ALL HE GAVE US FOR HOLDING INSTRUCTION. WHAT WE NEEDED WAS MORE INSTRUCTION TO HOLD AT KONA NDB, A RADIAL A OFF VOR, A LOC COURSE, A BEARING OFF KONA NDB, SOMETHING TO HOLD BY, AND EFC TIME. AFTER ASKING SEVERAL TIMES WE FINALLY GOT THE PROPER HOLDING INSTRUCTION HOLD NW OF KONA NDB INBOUND ON THE LOC COURSE, EFC TIME 2305. WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT IT TOOK SEVERAL MINS TO GET THE PROPER HOLD INSTRUCTION WHILE WE WERE FLYING AT A LOW ALT IN THE MOUNTAINS. FOR THE PERIOD OF TIME WE HAD NO IDEA WHAT THAT CTLR WANTED US TO DO. FINALLY WE ENTERED THE HOLD, WAS ISSUED THE APCH CLRNC FOR THE ILS RWY 11 AT MISSOULA MONT. EVERYTHING FROM THEN ON WENT SMOOTHLY. ALSO THE CREW WAS APCHING A 14 HR DUTY DAY. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: THE RPTR SAID THAT HE HAD NOT HEARD FROM THE COMPANY OR THE FAA SINCE HE HAD RPTED THIS EVENT. HIS PRIMARY INTEREST WAS TO HAVE THE CTLR BE A LITTLE MORE STANDARD IN HIS PROCS. THE RPTR SAID THAT HE WAS TIRED, BUT THE CTLR SEEMED MORE SO.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

An air carrier flight crew have difficulty determining if they were cleared for an approach and they started to descend, and the controller tells them to return to altitude. Later the controller issues incomplete holding instructions.