A cpr lear 35 flight crew crossed the remnants of the hold line on taxiway V for runway 11R/29L, but...

Attributes
ACN	366884
Time
Date	199704
Day	Mon
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	airport : msp
State Reference	MN
Altitude	agl bound lower : 0 agl bound upper : 0
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tower : duj
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Learjet 35
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 91
Flight Phase	ground other : taxi
Flight Plan	IFR
Aircraft 2
Make Model Name	Learjet 35
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 91
Person 1
Affiliation	Other
Function	flight crew : first officer oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : cfi pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 60 flight time total : 22000 flight time type : 550
ASRS Report	366884
Person 2
Affiliation	Other
Function	flight crew : captain
Qualification	pilot : atp
Events
Anomaly	non adherence : published procedure non adherence : far non adherence : clearance other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other controllera
Resolutory Action	controller : issued new clearance flight crew : became reoriented
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	Airport
Air Traffic Incident	other
Situations
Airport	other physical facility

Narrative:

A lear jet was cleared to taxi via taxiway V to runway 11R, hold short of runway 11R. Lear crew responded with a readback and taxied to runway 11R. Crew was cleared to cross runway 11R and taxied to the approach end of runway 11R. The PIC was the PNF and in the right seat reading the taxi and before takeoff checklist. The copilot stopped the aircraft approximately 30 ft short of the runway. The PIC noticed there were no hold lines painted on the taxiway in front of the jet. He also could not see the hold signs. Then while holding short for landing traffic, an MD80, the tower asked the MD80 on final if the lear holding short was clear, he appears 'to be a little past the hold line.' the crew responded, by saying 'no he's clear, not a problem.' the MD80 landed and the lear was cleared into position and hold, traffic a B757 on 4 mi final. At this time the MD80 that had just landed was too slow clearing the runway. Lear was asked to clear the runway and the crew immediately cleared the runway and taxied back. This gave the crew another chance to look at the hold lines. Oops no hold lines across the taxiway. There were the remains of some hold lines on either side of the taxiway on the apron. Also, the hold signs were not apparently there. The taxiway had either been repaired or the winter had worn off the yellow lines. The bottom line is this made for a very poorly marked area that could have caused a runway incursion. I realize it has probably been a long hard winter at msp, but the hold lines need to go completely across the taxiway or traffic needs to be advised until they are painted. If this is not correct I would like to be notified. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: the captain has been back to this airport since this incident and he is certain now that the hold line was paved over with asphalt and not repainted afterwards. The hold signs are not present either he said. He could still see the ends of the old hold line the last time he was there.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: A CPR LEAR 35 FLC CROSSED THE REMNANTS OF THE HOLD LINE ON TXWY V FOR RWY 11R/29L, BUT REMAINED FAR ENOUGH CLR OF THE RWY FOR AN ACR MD80 TO LAND. THE TXWY HAD BEEN REPAVED AND ONLY THE ENDS OF THE OLD HOLD LINE WERE VISIBLE TO THE FLC. THE FLC ALSO RPTED THAT THERE WERE NO HOLD SIGNS.

Narrative: A LEAR JET WAS CLRED TO TAXI VIA TXWY V TO RWY 11R, HOLD SHORT OF RWY 11R. LEAR CREW RESPONDED WITH A READBACK AND TAXIED TO RWY 11R. CREW WAS CLRED TO CROSS RWY 11R AND TAXIED TO THE APCH END OF RWY 11R. THE PIC WAS THE PNF AND IN THE R SEAT READING THE TAXI AND BEFORE TKOF CHKLIST. THE COPLT STOPPED THE ACFT APPROX 30 FT SHORT OF THE RWY. THE PIC NOTICED THERE WERE NO HOLD LINES PAINTED ON THE TXWY IN FRONT OF THE JET. HE ALSO COULD NOT SEE THE HOLD SIGNS. THEN WHILE HOLDING SHORT FOR LNDG TFC, AN MD80, THE TWR ASKED THE MD80 ON FINAL IF THE LEAR HOLDING SHORT WAS CLR, HE APPEARS 'TO BE A LITTLE PAST THE HOLD LINE.' THE CREW RESPONDED, BY SAYING 'NO HE'S CLR, NOT A PROB.' THE MD80 LANDED AND THE LEAR WAS CLRED INTO POS AND HOLD, TFC A B757 ON 4 MI FINAL. AT THIS TIME THE MD80 THAT HAD JUST LANDED WAS TOO SLOW CLRING THE RWY. LEAR WAS ASKED TO CLR THE RWY AND THE CREW IMMEDIATELY CLRED THE RWY AND TAXIED BACK. THIS GAVE THE CREW ANOTHER CHANCE TO LOOK AT THE HOLD LINES. OOPS NO HOLD LINES ACROSS THE TXWY. THERE WERE THE REMAINS OF SOME HOLD LINES ON EITHER SIDE OF THE TXWY ON THE APRON. ALSO, THE HOLD SIGNS WERE NOT APPARENTLY THERE. THE TXWY HAD EITHER BEEN REPAIRED OR THE WINTER HAD WORN OFF THE YELLOW LINES. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS MADE FOR A VERY POORLY MARKED AREA THAT COULD HAVE CAUSED A RWY INCURSION. I REALIZE IT HAS PROBABLY BEEN A LONG HARD WINTER AT MSP, BUT THE HOLD LINES NEED TO GO COMPLETELY ACROSS THE TXWY OR TFC NEEDS TO BE ADVISED UNTIL THEY ARE PAINTED. IF THIS IS NOT CORRECT I WOULD LIKE TO BE NOTIFIED. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: THE CAPT HAS BEEN BACK TO THIS ARPT SINCE THIS INCIDENT AND HE IS CERTAIN NOW THAT THE HOLD LINE WAS PAVED OVER WITH ASPHALT AND NOT REPAINTED AFTERWARDS. THE HOLD SIGNS ARE NOT PRESENT EITHER HE SAID. HE COULD STILL SEE THE ENDS OF THE OLD HOLD LINE THE LAST TIME HE WAS THERE.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.