Narrative:

Upon reviewing release in operations I saw in remarks that all ATC coords for my flight had been made. I then saw that both ATC xponders were inoperative. I then called dispatch to discuss this since I thought flight in class B airspace, etc, required a transponder. I was told that it was allowed by the MEL as long as we had ATC approval. I then wanted to know exactly who had approved it and all they had was someone's initials. I then called a chief pilot in the flight office and told him that I wasn't real interested in flying the northeast corridor without that equipment and that I certainly wanted to have a name of who approved it. I was called back by the chief and given a name and reassured that everything was well coordinated and that they would have no trouble at all with identing us on radar, etc. After this I met the first officer that had just brought the aircraft in from mia on flight xx. I asked him how it went with no transponder. He said fine if you don't mind being descended through another aircraft's altitude in a holding pattern. They were given a clearance to descend to an altitude and on the way down they saw that they were at the same altitude as another aircraft in the same pattern. They inquired about it and the controller apologized and admitted their error. The lack of an altitude readout I think was an obvious factor. If WX had been involved this could have been a disaster. I immediately called the chief back and told him about this and related that my comfort level with this operation had gone down quite a bit. He said he understood my concern and that it was up to me. I told him that since it was VFR clear all the way that I would fly it. I also said that considering what happened to the inbound flight that I would not do this in the future if any WX was involved. After being assured of all this...coordination tower told us to contact departure and when we did he promptly told us to recycle transponder and squawk XXXX. When we told him that we had no transponder he sounded pretty agitated and told us that he had not been informed. Here is where we were concerned about a possible violation. On our initial call we said we were climbing to 2500 ft which was the departure procedure. We cruised along for a little while because we figured they were scrambling trying to figure out what to do with us. Just as we were about to inquire the controller came on and asked us to say altitude. We replied 2500 ft. He came back and said sharply that he thought we had reported out of 3000 ft for 7000 ft. We had not received any such clearance or made any such report. He then turned us to 180 degrees and told us to climb to 7000 ft. This was a very uncomfortable situation for all concerned. We were all eyes outside because there were aircraft everywhere and we were not confident that we had proper separation and I am sure the controller had a similar sensation. En route things were fine and then when we contacted dfw approach again they had no idea that our transponder was inoperative. In light of the problems that flight xx had and the problems that we experienced it appears that ATC is really not able to adjust very well to this kind of thing and it could have had a very poor outcome for flight xx had they been in IMC conditions. After this experience I strongly believe that operation without transponder should be reconsidered in the MEL especially for high density areas like ny, etc.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: B727 DEPARTS WITH 2 INOP XPONDERS. COORD WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN ACCOMPLISHED WITH ATC. DATA CTLR AT N90 AND THE APCH CTLR AT DFW WERE UNAWARE OF THE ACFT BEING WITHOUT XPONDERS.

Narrative: UPON REVIEWING RELEASE IN OPS I SAW IN REMARKS THAT ALL ATC COORDS FOR MY FLT HAD BEEN MADE. I THEN SAW THAT BOTH ATC XPONDERS WERE INOP. I THEN CALLED DISPATCH TO DISCUSS THIS SINCE I THOUGHT FLT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE, ETC, REQUIRED A XPONDER. I WAS TOLD THAT IT WAS ALLOWED BY THE MEL AS LONG AS WE HAD ATC APPROVAL. I THEN WANTED TO KNOW EXACTLY WHO HAD APPROVED IT AND ALL THEY HAD WAS SOMEONE'S INITIALS. I THEN CALLED A CHIEF PLT IN THE FLT OFFICE AND TOLD HIM THAT I WASN'T REAL INTERESTED IN FLYING THE NE CORRIDOR WITHOUT THAT EQUIP AND THAT I CERTAINLY WANTED TO HAVE A NAME OF WHO APPROVED IT. I WAS CALLED BACK BY THE CHIEF AND GIVEN A NAME AND REASSURED THAT EVERYTHING WAS WELL COORDINATED AND THAT THEY WOULD HAVE NO TROUBLE AT ALL WITH IDENTING US ON RADAR, ETC. AFTER THIS I MET THE FO THAT HAD JUST BROUGHT THE ACFT IN FROM MIA ON FLT XX. I ASKED HIM HOW IT WENT WITH NO XPONDER. HE SAID FINE IF YOU DON'T MIND BEING DSNDED THROUGH ANOTHER ACFT'S ALT IN A HOLDING PATTERN. THEY WERE GIVEN A CLRNC TO DSND TO AN ALT AND ON THE WAY DOWN THEY SAW THAT THEY WERE AT THE SAME ALT AS ANOTHER ACFT IN THE SAME PATTERN. THEY INQUIRED ABOUT IT AND THE CTLR APOLOGIZED AND ADMITTED THEIR ERROR. THE LACK OF AN ALT READOUT I THINK WAS AN OBVIOUS FACTOR. IF WX HAD BEEN INVOLVED THIS COULD HAVE BEEN A DISASTER. I IMMEDIATELY CALLED THE CHIEF BACK AND TOLD HIM ABOUT THIS AND RELATED THAT MY COMFORT LEVEL WITH THIS OP HAD GONE DOWN QUITE A BIT. HE SAID HE UNDERSTOOD MY CONCERN AND THAT IT WAS UP TO ME. I TOLD HIM THAT SINCE IT WAS VFR CLR ALL THE WAY THAT I WOULD FLY IT. I ALSO SAID THAT CONSIDERING WHAT HAPPENED TO THE INBOUND FLT THAT I WOULD NOT DO THIS IN THE FUTURE IF ANY WX WAS INVOLVED. AFTER BEING ASSURED OF ALL THIS...COORD TWR TOLD US TO CONTACT DEP AND WHEN WE DID HE PROMPTLY TOLD US TO RECYCLE XPONDER AND SQUAWK XXXX. WHEN WE TOLD HIM THAT WE HAD NO XPONDER HE SOUNDED PRETTY AGITATED AND TOLD US THAT HE HAD NOT BEEN INFORMED. HERE IS WHERE WE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT A POSSIBLE VIOLATION. ON OUR INITIAL CALL WE SAID WE WERE CLBING TO 2500 FT WHICH WAS THE DEP PROC. WE CRUISED ALONG FOR A LITTLE WHILE BECAUSE WE FIGURED THEY WERE SCRAMBLING TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH US. JUST AS WE WERE ABOUT TO INQUIRE THE CTLR CAME ON AND ASKED US TO SAY ALT. WE REPLIED 2500 FT. HE CAME BACK AND SAID SHARPLY THAT HE THOUGHT WE HAD RPTED OUT OF 3000 FT FOR 7000 FT. WE HAD NOT RECEIVED ANY SUCH CLRNC OR MADE ANY SUCH RPT. HE THEN TURNED US TO 180 DEGS AND TOLD US TO CLB TO 7000 FT. THIS WAS A VERY UNCOMFORTABLE SIT FOR ALL CONCERNED. WE WERE ALL EYES OUTSIDE BECAUSE THERE WERE ACFT EVERYWHERE AND WE WERE NOT CONFIDENT THAT WE HAD PROPER SEPARATION AND I AM SURE THE CTLR HAD A SIMILAR SENSATION. ENRTE THINGS WERE FINE AND THEN WHEN WE CONTACTED DFW APCH AGAIN THEY HAD NO IDEA THAT OUR XPONDER WAS INOP. IN LIGHT OF THE PROBS THAT FLT XX HAD AND THE PROBS THAT WE EXPERIENCED IT APPEARS THAT ATC IS REALLY NOT ABLE TO ADJUST VERY WELL TO THIS KIND OF THING AND IT COULD HAVE HAD A VERY POOR OUTCOME FOR FLT XX HAD THEY BEEN IN IMC CONDITIONS. AFTER THIS EXPERIENCE I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT OP WITHOUT XPONDER SHOULD BE RECONSIDERED IN THE MEL ESPECIALLY FOR HIGH DENSITY AREAS LIKE NY, ETC.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.