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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 403897 |
Time | |
Date | 199805 |
Day | Fri |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : lax |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | agl bound lower : 300 agl bound upper : 1000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : lax tower : lax tracon : pns |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | L-1011-500 Series |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | Other |
Flight Phase | descent : approach |
Route In Use | approach : visual arrival other arrival star : star |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | B757 Undifferentiated or Other Model |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | Other Other |
Flight Phase | descent : approach |
Route In Use | approach : visual arrival other arrival star : star |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : instrument pilot : commercial pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 180 flight time total : 12000 flight time type : 180 |
ASRS Report | 403897 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : instrument pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 180 flight time total : 35000 flight time type : 180 |
ASRS Report | 403809 |
Events | |
Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : clearance other anomaly other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other controllera other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | none taken : anomaly accepted |
Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Operational Error Pilot Deviation |
Situations | |
ATC Facility | procedure or policy : unspecified |
Narrative:
During approach via paradise 2 to lax, inside arnes intersection, socal restricts our flight to 7000 ft and instructs us to call runway 25R in sight, plus another air carrier flight is turning onto the runway 25L approach. Unable to answer because of radio traffic, we are finally cleared to intercept runway 25R localizer but not to pass air carrier Y flight. At the point we are even with the air carrier Y B757 on runway 25L approach. Slowed to approach speed and very high on glidepath. We maintained even position with air carrier Y B757 until inside two miles when air carrier Y slows. As pilot flying I did not have air carrier Y in sight but captain did, until he slowed and we went ahead. Tower asked if we had air carrier Y in sight and we replied 'no' at which time air carrier Y advised we were in sight. We were advised to call tower at the gate. This is an unsatisfactory situation for all involved. Minimum speed is minimum speed and a B757 has a lower speed than L-1011. Close proximity of lax runways 25R & 25L made two large aircraft too close for safety. Lax tower advised it is legal. Supplemental information from acn 403809: I was told not to pass the B757. At 1 1/2 mi from landing we were even with the B757. We were at minimum speed getting on the glideslope. I came back visually in the cockpit to see how the copilot (flying) was doing, when I turned back to observe the B757 he was gone, having pulled the power to get behind us. The las tower supervisor told me I violated the clearance. Within 1 mi to touchdown there is no way I can stay behind, even when I'm at minimum speed and a B757 pulls the power.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: AN L1011 ON APCH TO LAX RWY 25R WAS ADVISED TO KEEP ACR Y B757 IN SIGHT MAKING A VISUAL APCH TO RWY 25L AND 'NOT TO PASS IT'. THE L1011 GAINED ON THE B757 AND PASSED IT 1.5 MI FROM TOUCHDOWN WHEN THE B757 SLOWED FOR LNDG. L1011 CREW WAS ASKED TO CALL THE TWR SUPVR WHO LATER SAID THE FAC OPERATION 'WAS LEGAL.'
Narrative: DURING APCH VIA PARADISE 2 TO LAX, INSIDE ARNES INTXN, SOCAL RESTRICTS OUR FLT TO 7000 FT AND INSTRUCTS US TO CALL RWY 25R IN SIGHT, PLUS ANOTHER ACR FLT IS TURNING ONTO THE RWY 25L APCH. UNABLE TO ANSWER BECAUSE OF RADIO TFC, WE ARE FINALLY CLRED TO INTERCEPT RWY 25R LOC BUT NOT TO PASS ACR Y FLT. AT THE POINT WE ARE EVEN WITH THE ACR Y B757 ON RWY 25L APCH. SLOWED TO APCH SPEED AND VERY HIGH ON GLIDEPATH. WE MAINTAINED EVEN POS WITH ACR Y B757 UNTIL INSIDE TWO MILES WHEN ACR Y SLOWS. AS PLT FLYING I DID NOT HAVE ACR Y IN SIGHT BUT CAPT DID, UNTIL HE SLOWED AND WE WENT AHEAD. TWR ASKED IF WE HAD ACR Y IN SIGHT AND WE REPLIED 'NO' AT WHICH TIME ACR Y ADVISED WE WERE IN SIGHT. WE WERE ADVISED TO CALL TWR AT THE GATE. THIS IS AN UNSATISFACTORY SIT FOR ALL INVOLVED. MINIMUM SPEED IS MINIMUM SPEED AND A B757 HAS A LOWER SPEED THAN L-1011. CLOSE PROX OF LAX RWYS 25R & 25L MADE TWO LARGE ACFT TOO CLOSE FOR SAFETY. LAX TWR ADVISED IT IS LEGAL. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 403809: I WAS TOLD NOT TO PASS THE B757. AT 1 1/2 MI FROM LNDG WE WERE EVEN WITH THE B757. WE WERE AT MINIMUM SPEED GETTING ON THE GLIDESLOPE. I CAME BACK VISUALLY IN THE COCKPIT TO SEE HOW THE COPLT (FLYING) WAS DOING, WHEN I TURNED BACK TO OBSERVE THE B757 HE WAS GONE, HAVING PULLED THE PWR TO GET BEHIND US. THE LAS TWR SUPVR TOLD ME I VIOLATED THE CLRNC. WITHIN 1 MI TO TOUCHDOWN THERE IS NO WAY I CAN STAY BEHIND, EVEN WHEN I'M AT MINIMUM SPEED AND A B757 PULLS THE PWR.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.