Narrative:

While on a short flight from teb to hpn, and while being vectored from the northwest, ATC asked what our airspeed was. I answered 240 KTS slowing to 210 KTS. (I responded slowing to 210 KTS as I saw 210 KTS set in the airspeed preselect and I had just that moment returned to ATC after obtaining the ATIS. Actually the PF was already slowing to 180 KTS. He had set the airspeed preselect to 210 KTS to slow the aircraft towards 220 KTS, at which time he was going to select speed to 'automatic speed.' this automatically would slow the aircraft to 180 KTS.) the controller asked again what our actual airspeed was. I answered again 240 KTS slowing to 210 KTS. He then said that he needed 200 KTS for below class B airspace. The PF and I calculated that we were in a good position (geographically) to be slowing to 180 KTS for class B and air traffic area which sort of coincides to the northwest of hpn. After a close look at the class B and en route chart, I would have to admit that we probably were 1-2 mi within (below) class B airspace. The time (duration) above 200 KTS was minimal as can be imagined by the above sketch, and there was no involvement of another aircraft. (I called and spoke with the controling ATC supervisor. He played the tapes and spoke with the approach controller. He said they were not taking issue with the situation and that the controller might just as easily have asked for 190 KTS to help his situation. The conversation was professional and courteous.) the flight from teb to hpn is usually very short, anywhere from 7-15 mins. Typically, one would go from teb using a departure SID, FMS displayed navigation en route, and then an approach chart to hpn. The airway en route chart would normally be available, but not used. Unfortunately approach charts do not depict the class B airspace. Nor does the FMS database obtain/display this airspace. It becomes cumbersome for the crew to have to look at all charts pertaining to the area, look for other aircraft visually and TCASII, obtain ATIS, contact ground support, complete checklists, and navigation positionally during a few radar vector heading changes, with strong turbulence from a passing cold front and all in 7-15 mins. In my opinion, if a controller watches an aircraft penetrate a speed zone, and then asks for the speed (because it appears to be too fast), little is being done at that time to enhance safety. I would recommend that ATC controllers be allowed/asked to request that any aircraft entering a speed zone at too fast a speed be requested to 'slow to 200 KTS.' I believe that the approach controllers have the class B boundaries superimposed on their screens. I do believe that the controllers could be very effective in backing up the pilots in this type of a situation, and promote an extra margin of safety.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: GIV FLC, CONDUCTING AN APCH TO HPN, MISJUDGED NEW YORK CLASS B AND EXCEEDED THE REQUIRED SPD RESTR WHILE FLYING BENEATH CLASS B.

Narrative: WHILE ON A SHORT FLT FROM TEB TO HPN, AND WHILE BEING VECTORED FROM THE NW, ATC ASKED WHAT OUR AIRSPD WAS. I ANSWERED 240 KTS SLOWING TO 210 KTS. (I RESPONDED SLOWING TO 210 KTS AS I SAW 210 KTS SET IN THE AIRSPD PRESELECT AND I HAD JUST THAT MOMENT RETURNED TO ATC AFTER OBTAINING THE ATIS. ACTUALLY THE PF WAS ALREADY SLOWING TO 180 KTS. HE HAD SET THE AIRSPD PRESELECT TO 210 KTS TO SLOW THE ACFT TOWARDS 220 KTS, AT WHICH TIME HE WAS GOING TO SELECT SPD TO 'AUTO SPD.' THIS AUTOMATICALLY WOULD SLOW THE ACFT TO 180 KTS.) THE CTLR ASKED AGAIN WHAT OUR ACTUAL AIRSPD WAS. I ANSWERED AGAIN 240 KTS SLOWING TO 210 KTS. HE THEN SAID THAT HE NEEDED 200 KTS FOR BELOW CLASS B AIRSPACE. THE PF AND I CALCULATED THAT WE WERE IN A GOOD POS (GEOGRAPHICALLY) TO BE SLOWING TO 180 KTS FOR CLASS B AND ATA WHICH SORT OF COINCIDES TO THE NW OF HPN. AFTER A CLOSE LOOK AT THE CLASS B AND ENRTE CHART, I WOULD HAVE TO ADMIT THAT WE PROBABLY WERE 1-2 MI WITHIN (BELOW) CLASS B AIRSPACE. THE TIME (DURATION) ABOVE 200 KTS WAS MINIMAL AS CAN BE IMAGINED BY THE ABOVE SKETCH, AND THERE WAS NO INVOLVEMENT OF ANOTHER ACFT. (I CALLED AND SPOKE WITH THE CTLING ATC SUPVR. HE PLAYED THE TAPES AND SPOKE WITH THE APCH CTLR. HE SAID THEY WERE NOT TAKING ISSUE WITH THE SIT AND THAT THE CTLR MIGHT JUST AS EASILY HAVE ASKED FOR 190 KTS TO HELP HIS SIT. THE CONVERSATION WAS PROFESSIONAL AND COURTEOUS.) THE FLT FROM TEB TO HPN IS USUALLY VERY SHORT, ANYWHERE FROM 7-15 MINS. TYPICALLY, ONE WOULD GO FROM TEB USING A DEP SID, FMS DISPLAYED NAV ENRTE, AND THEN AN APCH CHART TO HPN. THE AIRWAY ENRTE CHART WOULD NORMALLY BE AVAILABLE, BUT NOT USED. UNFORTUNATELY APCH CHARTS DO NOT DEPICT THE CLASS B AIRSPACE. NOR DOES THE FMS DATABASE OBTAIN/DISPLAY THIS AIRSPACE. IT BECOMES CUMBERSOME FOR THE CREW TO HAVE TO LOOK AT ALL CHARTS PERTAINING TO THE AREA, LOOK FOR OTHER ACFT VISUALLY AND TCASII, OBTAIN ATIS, CONTACT GND SUPPORT, COMPLETE CHKLISTS, AND NAV POSITIONALLY DURING A FEW RADAR VECTOR HDG CHANGES, WITH STRONG TURB FROM A PASSING COLD FRONT AND ALL IN 7-15 MINS. IN MY OPINION, IF A CTLR WATCHES AN ACFT PENETRATE A SPD ZONE, AND THEN ASKS FOR THE SPD (BECAUSE IT APPEARS TO BE TOO FAST), LITTLE IS BEING DONE AT THAT TIME TO ENHANCE SAFETY. I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT ATC CTLRS BE ALLOWED/ASKED TO REQUEST THAT ANY ACFT ENTERING A SPD ZONE AT TOO FAST A SPD BE REQUESTED TO 'SLOW TO 200 KTS.' I BELIEVE THAT THE APCH CTLRS HAVE THE CLASS B BOUNDARIES SUPERIMPOSED ON THEIR SCREENS. I DO BELIEVE THAT THE CTLRS COULD BE VERY EFFECTIVE IN BACKING UP THE PLTS IN THIS TYPE OF A SIT, AND PROMOTE AN EXTRA MARGIN OF SAFETY.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.