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37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
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Departing heavy jet observes conflict with previous departing MD80. L30 requests if in trail aircraft can provide visual separation from MD80. PIC of in trail aircraft believes this was poor controling.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 453339 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199910 |
| Day | Thu |
| Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | airport : las.airport |
| State Reference | NV |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 7000 msl bound upper : 9000 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : l30.tracon |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | Widebody, Low Wing, 4 Turbojet Eng |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | other |
| Flight Phase | climbout : intermediate altitude |
| Route In Use | departure sid : oveto 3 |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : l30.tracon |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | MD-80 Series (DC-9-80) Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Flight Phase | climbout : intermediate altitude |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 22000 flight time type : 1200 |
| ASRS Report | 453339 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : instrument pilot : multi engine pilot : commercial |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | conflict : airborne critical non adherence : published procedure other spatial deviation |
| Independent Detector | aircraft equipment : tcas other controllera other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | controller : issued alert controller : issued new clearance flight crew : took precautionary avoidance action |
| Miss Distance | horizontal : 3000 vertical : 900 |
| Supplementary | |
| Problem Areas | ATC Human Performance Flight Crew Human Performance Airspace Structure Airport |
| Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Narrative:
MD80 (aircraft Y) took off ahead of us (aircraft X) on runway 25R at las by approximately 1 1/2 mins and continued on runway heading to the west for unknown distance. We were cleared for takeoff and flew oveto 3 departure SID. On first call, departure control cleared us to 15000 ft. We observed the MD80 approximately 4 mi to the west of us starting a right turn and appeared to be departing northbound. Approximately 1/2 way through our right turn to 070 degrees, we saw the MD80 converging on our flight path. Departure control asked if we had MD80 in sight. We replied 'affirmative.' departure control asked us to 'maintain visual separation' and to continue climb to 15000 ft. We increased rate of climb and the MD80 continued to turn (and climb) towards our flight path, after we were on a 070 degree heading and crossed approximately 3000 ft in front of us and 800-1000 ft below us. We were climbing at a very rapid rate. We received a TCASII TA and an RA briefly (advising 'monitor vertical speed') as we were climbing. I do not understand how this conflict was allowed to develop and was not resolved except for the request to 'maintain visual separation' by departure control. This was in a full radar environment. Apparently the MD80 flew well beyond the 4 DME turn point, and departure control did not notice. If we had not been light enough to increase our climb rate as much as we did, this would have been a very close conflict.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: DEPARTING HVY JET OBSERVES CONFLICT WITH PREVIOUS DEPARTING MD80. L30 REQUESTS IF IN TRAIL ACFT CAN PROVIDE VISUAL SEPARATION FROM MD80. PIC OF IN TRAIL ACFT BELIEVES THIS WAS POOR CTLING.
Narrative: MD80 (ACFT Y) TOOK OFF AHEAD OF US (ACFT X) ON RWY 25R AT LAS BY APPROX 1 1/2 MINS AND CONTINUED ON RWY HDG TO THE W FOR UNKNOWN DISTANCE. WE WERE CLRED FOR TKOF AND FLEW OVETO 3 DEP SID. ON FIRST CALL, DEP CTL CLRED US TO 15000 FT. WE OBSERVED THE MD80 APPROX 4 MI TO THE W OF US STARTING A R TURN AND APPEARED TO BE DEPARTING NBOUND. APPROX 1/2 WAY THROUGH OUR R TURN TO 070 DEGS, WE SAW THE MD80 CONVERGING ON OUR FLT PATH. DEP CTL ASKED IF WE HAD MD80 IN SIGHT. WE REPLIED 'AFFIRMATIVE.' DEP CTL ASKED US TO 'MAINTAIN VISUAL SEPARATION' AND TO CONTINUE CLB TO 15000 FT. WE INCREASED RATE OF CLB AND THE MD80 CONTINUED TO TURN (AND CLB) TOWARDS OUR FLT PATH, AFTER WE WERE ON A 070 DEG HDG AND CROSSED APPROX 3000 FT IN FRONT OF US AND 800-1000 FT BELOW US. WE WERE CLBING AT A VERY RAPID RATE. WE RECEIVED A TCASII TA AND AN RA BRIEFLY (ADVISING 'MONITOR VERT SPD') AS WE WERE CLBING. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW THIS CONFLICT WAS ALLOWED TO DEVELOP AND WAS NOT RESOLVED EXCEPT FOR THE REQUEST TO 'MAINTAIN VISUAL SEPARATION' BY DEP CTL. THIS WAS IN A FULL RADAR ENVIRONMENT. APPARENTLY THE MD80 FLEW WELL BEYOND THE 4 DME TURN POINT, AND DEP CTL DID NOT NOTICE. IF WE HAD NOT BEEN LIGHT ENOUGH TO INCREASE OUR CLB RATE AS MUCH AS WE DID, THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A VERY CLOSE CONFLICT.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.