Narrative:

Taxied just barely past the ILS hold short line at approach end of runway 17L at sdf. 2 aircraft were sent around. This occurred for several reason; 1) the controller said 'taxi to runway 17L, hold short of the approach.' not 'hold short of ILS line,' 'hold short of runway,' 'hold short of taxiway D' -- any of which would have made sense. I thought this was strange terminology but he meant hold short of the approach to the runway. The approach to the runway is an extension of the runway centerline, not off to the side of the runway 100-150 yards as they use in sdf. I haven't heard that terminology used before, though it is in the commercial pubs. 2) we were doing checklists as we approached runway and did not expect to see a sign way back from the runway saying runway 17L approach or whatever. I never did see the sign as it was so far back as I was not looking then. 3) after the incident, looking for sdf in commercial charts, you will note the line is referred to as an 'ILS hold line.' if controller had said that, this incident wouldn't have happened. Also, I believe the 'hold line' is actually further back than depicted on this page. 4) the WX was VFR, the controller later stated it was raining (it was not at the time, though it had been earlier). Nevertheless, the aircraft that were sent around could clearly be seen well out on final and could easily have landed VFR. The controller was following procedures and should be given latitude to allow aircraft to land VFR. The problem lies with nonstandard sdf runway procedures. Supplemental information from can 514082: ATC clearance was to 'taxi to runway 17L, hold short of the approach.' captain taxied aircraft from gate via txwys H, K, and D. I accomplished taxi and all engines checklists. Immediately after I finished the checklists, the captain said he thought he had taxied past the hold short line. We were at the intersection of txwys K, D, north and P. The runway hold short line was greater than 100 ft in front of us. As we stopped well short of taxiway D (south), I asked tower if we'd taxied too far. He replied that we had and sent around 2 aircraft on final. He also said sdf had prior troubles with the hold short lines. After subsequently taxiing down the runway, txwys D5 and D to hold short, followed by takeoff clearance, I looked for but never saw the approach/ILS hold short line on taxiway K. The approach/ILS hold short line must be unusually far from the approach end of runway 17L on taxiway K. It sure was not at the location depicted on our commercial chart (enclosed). 'Hold short of the approach' is not exactly clear. Approach end, ILS hold short line, approach hold short line? Give a heads-up call to pilots of the line's position since it is unusually far from the runway. Clearance for a visual approach would have done away with at least one of the gars, especially since we were not over the runway hold short line plus the WX was VMC. Callback conversation with reporter can 513541 revealed the following information: the WX was adequate for the approaching aircraft to complete the arrival in visual conditions. The arriving aircraft questioned the reason for the go around while executing it. The hold short lines appear to be set more to protect a 2-TXWY access to runway 17L more than the protection of the arriving aircraft from an actual runway incursion or a protection of the ILS signal for low visibility approachs. The terminology used by the controller did not refer to the ILS hold short line as depicted for the runway. It referred to the approach, which the crew interpreted as an extension of the centerline off the end of the runway. In later conversation with the tower it was found that this type incursion occurs on a regular basis at this point on the airport.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: AN ACR CREW MISUNDERSTANDS A NON STANDARD TERMINOLOGY CLRNC TO 'HOLD SHORT OF THE APCH' RESULTING IN A TAXI ACROSS A HOLD SHORT LINE THAT IS SET BACK MORE THAN EXPECTED FROM THE RWY. AN APCHING ACFT IS GIVEN A GAR.

Narrative: TAXIED JUST BARELY PAST THE ILS HOLD SHORT LINE AT APCH END OF RWY 17L AT SDF. 2 ACFT WERE SENT AROUND. THIS OCCURRED FOR SEVERAL REASON; 1) THE CTLR SAID 'TAXI TO RWY 17L, HOLD SHORT OF THE APCH.' NOT 'HOLD SHORT OF ILS LINE,' 'HOLD SHORT OF RWY,' 'HOLD SHORT OF TXWY D' -- ANY OF WHICH WOULD HAVE MADE SENSE. I THOUGHT THIS WAS STRANGE TERMINOLOGY BUT HE MEANT HOLD SHORT OF THE APCH TO THE RWY. THE APCH TO THE RWY IS AN EXTENSION OF THE RWY CTRLINE, NOT OFF TO THE SIDE OF THE RWY 100-150 YARDS AS THEY USE IN SDF. I HAVEN'T HEARD THAT TERMINOLOGY USED BEFORE, THOUGH IT IS IN THE COMMERCIAL PUBS. 2) WE WERE DOING CHKLISTS AS WE APCHED RWY AND DID NOT EXPECT TO SEE A SIGN WAY BACK FROM THE RWY SAYING RWY 17L APCH OR WHATEVER. I NEVER DID SEE THE SIGN AS IT WAS SO FAR BACK AS I WAS NOT LOOKING THEN. 3) AFTER THE INCIDENT, LOOKING FOR SDF IN COMMERCIAL CHARTS, YOU WILL NOTE THE LINE IS REFERRED TO AS AN 'ILS HOLD LINE.' IF CTLR HAD SAID THAT, THIS INCIDENT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED. ALSO, I BELIEVE THE 'HOLD LINE' IS ACTUALLY FURTHER BACK THAN DEPICTED ON THIS PAGE. 4) THE WX WAS VFR, THE CTLR LATER STATED IT WAS RAINING (IT WAS NOT AT THE TIME, THOUGH IT HAD BEEN EARLIER). NEVERTHELESS, THE ACFT THAT WERE SENT AROUND COULD CLRLY BE SEEN WELL OUT ON FINAL AND COULD EASILY HAVE LANDED VFR. THE CTLR WAS FOLLOWING PROCS AND SHOULD BE GIVEN LATITUDE TO ALLOW ACFT TO LAND VFR. THE PROB LIES WITH NONSTANDARD SDF RWY PROCS. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM CAN 514082: ATC CLRNC WAS TO 'TAXI TO RWY 17L, HOLD SHORT OF THE APCH.' CAPT TAXIED ACFT FROM GATE VIA TXWYS H, K, AND D. I ACCOMPLISHED TAXI AND ALL ENGS CHKLISTS. IMMEDIATELY AFTER I FINISHED THE CHKLISTS, THE CAPT SAID HE THOUGHT HE HAD TAXIED PAST THE HOLD SHORT LINE. WE WERE AT THE INTXN OF TXWYS K, D, N AND P. THE RWY HOLD SHORT LINE WAS GREATER THAN 100 FT IN FRONT OF US. AS WE STOPPED WELL SHORT OF TXWY D (S), I ASKED TWR IF WE'D TAXIED TOO FAR. HE REPLIED THAT WE HAD AND SENT AROUND 2 ACFT ON FINAL. HE ALSO SAID SDF HAD PRIOR TROUBLES WITH THE HOLD SHORT LINES. AFTER SUBSEQUENTLY TAXIING DOWN THE RWY, TXWYS D5 AND D TO HOLD SHORT, FOLLOWED BY TKOF CLRNC, I LOOKED FOR BUT NEVER SAW THE APCH/ILS HOLD SHORT LINE ON TXWY K. THE APCH/ILS HOLD SHORT LINE MUST BE UNUSUALLY FAR FROM THE APCH END OF RWY 17L ON TXWY K. IT SURE WAS NOT AT THE LOCATION DEPICTED ON OUR COMMERCIAL CHART (ENCLOSED). 'HOLD SHORT OF THE APCH' IS NOT EXACTLY CLR. APCH END, ILS HOLD SHORT LINE, APCH HOLD SHORT LINE? GIVE A HEADS-UP CALL TO PLTS OF THE LINE'S POS SINCE IT IS UNUSUALLY FAR FROM THE RWY. CLRNC FOR A VISUAL APCH WOULD HAVE DONE AWAY WITH AT LEAST ONE OF THE GARS, ESPECIALLY SINCE WE WERE NOT OVER THE RWY HOLD SHORT LINE PLUS THE WX WAS VMC. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR CAN 513541 REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: THE WX WAS ADEQUATE FOR THE APCHING ACFT TO COMPLETE THE ARR IN VISUAL CONDITIONS. THE ARRIVING ACFT QUESTIONED THE REASON FOR THE GAR WHILE EXECUTING IT. THE HOLD SHORT LINES APPEAR TO BE SET MORE TO PROTECT A 2-TXWY ACCESS TO RWY 17L MORE THAN THE PROTECTION OF THE ARRIVING ACFT FROM AN ACTUAL RWY INCURSION OR A PROTECTION OF THE ILS SIGNAL FOR LOW VISIBILITY APCHS. THE TERMINOLOGY USED BY THE CTLR DID NOT REFER TO THE ILS HOLD SHORT LINE AS DEPICTED FOR THE RWY. IT REFERRED TO THE APCH, WHICH THE CREW INTERPED AS AN EXTENSION OF THE CTRLINE OFF THE END OF THE RWY. IN LATER CONVERSATION WITH THE TWR IT WAS FOUND THAT THIS TYPE INCURSION OCCURS ON A REGULAR BASIS AT THIS POINT ON THE ARPT.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.