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B757-200 captain overshot final on a visual approach due to being too close on downwind leg to allow even a continuous turn to final to make the turn without overshooting. Approach controller was upset at the flight crew since they failed to provide appropriate visual separation.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 520720 |
| Time | |
| Date | 200108 |
| Day | Thu |
| Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | airport : slc.airport |
| State Reference | UT |
| Altitude | agl bound lower : 500 agl bound upper : 1500 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : s56.tracon |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B757 Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | other |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach |
| Route In Use | approach : visual |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : s56.tracon |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | MD-80 Series (DC-9-80) Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : multi engine pilot : instrument pilot : flight engineer pilot : cfi pilot : atp |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 9000 flight time type : 1000 |
| ASRS Report | 520720 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : clearance other spatial deviation |
| Independent Detector | other controllera other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | controller : issued advisory flight crew : returned to intended or assigned course |
| Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew other |
| Miss Distance | vertical : 100 |
| Supplementary | |
| Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance ATC Human Performance |
| Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
| Air Traffic Incident | other |
Narrative:
Still flying with a sub-standard captain -- his leg. We were on a high, very tight downwind for the visual approach runway 34L in slc. We were asked if we had an MD90 in sight on final. We said yes and were cleared a visual approach to runway 34L following him. We were so tight on downwind we did a continuous turn to final and still overshot. During the turn we got an RA which at first was 'monitor vertical speed' then changed to 'reduce vertical speed' (I believe that's the terminology) which requires a return to level flight to maintain the green arc. During this the approach controller calls out citation traffic for runway 35. We were belly up to him and never saw him. After we got 'clear of conflict' we descended for a normal landing, although the captain was very confused about how to get his flight directors back to normal (I reset them) -- he fixated on them despite being on a 3 mi final. I told the approach controller we got an RA and she immediately started covering her hind end -- she told us she had reported at the traffic and she had done everything correctly and started asking us numerous questions till we were about 2 mi out (+/- 600 ft AGL). I told her I had to go to tower to get a landing clearance. Several things here: 1) give us conflicting TA's before I am belly up to them, 2) don't predicate an approach on visual separation if you haven't asked first (sfo is the worst for this) if I have it in sight, and 3) don't start a long rambling butt-covering question and answer session on short final -- prioritize. I think this controller totally lost control of the situation, 4) (for pilots) fly the plane! Look at the window and forget the flight directors if you are in VMC and the flight director is lying to you! This captain really needs to learn the basics -- to be 100% dependent on the flight directors and automatic throttles. It scares me to fly with him.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: B757-200 CAPT OVERSHOT FINAL ON A VISUAL APCH DUE TO BEING TOO CLOSE ON DOWNWIND LEG TO ALLOW EVEN A CONTINUOUS TURN TO FINAL TO MAKE THE TURN WITHOUT OVERSHOOTING. APCH CTLR WAS UPSET AT THE FLC SINCE THEY FAILED TO PROVIDE APPROPRIATE VISUAL SEPARATION.
Narrative: STILL FLYING WITH A SUB-STANDARD CAPT -- HIS LEG. WE WERE ON A HIGH, VERY TIGHT DOWNWIND FOR THE VISUAL APCH RWY 34L IN SLC. WE WERE ASKED IF WE HAD AN MD90 IN SIGHT ON FINAL. WE SAID YES AND WERE CLRED A VISUAL APCH TO RWY 34L FOLLOWING HIM. WE WERE SO TIGHT ON DOWNWIND WE DID A CONTINUOUS TURN TO FINAL AND STILL OVERSHOT. DURING THE TURN WE GOT AN RA WHICH AT FIRST WAS 'MONITOR VERT SPD' THEN CHANGED TO 'REDUCE VERT SPD' (I BELIEVE THAT'S THE TERMINOLOGY) WHICH REQUIRES A RETURN TO LEVEL FLT TO MAINTAIN THE GREEN ARC. DURING THIS THE APCH CTLR CALLS OUT CITATION TFC FOR RWY 35. WE WERE BELLY UP TO HIM AND NEVER SAW HIM. AFTER WE GOT 'CLR OF CONFLICT' WE DSNDED FOR A NORMAL LNDG, ALTHOUGH THE CAPT WAS VERY CONFUSED ABOUT HOW TO GET HIS FLT DIRECTORS BACK TO NORMAL (I RESET THEM) -- HE FIXATED ON THEM DESPITE BEING ON A 3 MI FINAL. I TOLD THE APCH CTLR WE GOT AN RA AND SHE IMMEDIATELY STARTED COVERING HER HIND END -- SHE TOLD US SHE HAD RPTED AT THE TFC AND SHE HAD DONE EVERYTHING CORRECTLY AND STARTED ASKING US NUMEROUS QUESTIONS TILL WE WERE ABOUT 2 MI OUT (+/- 600 FT AGL). I TOLD HER I HAD TO GO TO TWR TO GET A LNDG CLRNC. SEVERAL THINGS HERE: 1) GIVE US CONFLICTING TA'S BEFORE I AM BELLY UP TO THEM, 2) DON'T PREDICATE AN APCH ON VISUAL SEPARATION IF YOU HAVEN'T ASKED FIRST (SFO IS THE WORST FOR THIS) IF I HAVE IT IN SIGHT, AND 3) DON'T START A LONG RAMBLING BUTT-COVERING QUESTION AND ANSWER SESSION ON SHORT FINAL -- PRIORITIZE. I THINK THIS CTLR TOTALLY LOST CTL OF THE SIT, 4) (FOR PLTS) FLY THE PLANE! LOOK AT THE WINDOW AND FORGET THE FLT DIRECTORS IF YOU ARE IN VMC AND THE FLT DIRECTOR IS LYING TO YOU! THIS CAPT REALLY NEEDS TO LEARN THE BASICS -- TO BE 100% DEPENDENT ON THE FLT DIRECTORS AND AUTO THROTTLES. IT SCARES ME TO FLY WITH HIM.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.