Narrative:

The purpose of this debrief is to highlight what I believe is an unsafe practice used by stl approach control. Because the runways are too close together for simultaneous precision approachs at stl, the practice when visual approachs are in effect, is to use the ILS localizer of the right runway and the offset lda localizer of the left runway. Because aircraft are operating close together, approach control will clear the aircraft on the right runway for a visual approach and step down the aircraft on the left side until they can accept visual separation from the aircraft on the right. There is a practice used by stl approach control, which I believe is inherently dangerous. When running visual approachs, they put aircraft landing runway 30L abeam aircraft landing runway 30R (and require the higher aircraft), which is the one on approach for runway 30L to maintain visual separation with the one on runway 30R. The problem is that, because of the offset of the runway thresholds -- runway 30R is east of runway 30L -- if both aircraft are on a normal GS, which, of course, we are required to fly, and both aircraft are abeam each other -- it is not possible for the pilot in the left seat of the higher aircraft on the runway 30L approach to see the aircraft on the runway 30R approach, because it is out of sight below and to the right. I cannot address how other capts handle this. I've heard some go around, but many apparently accept the clearance if their first officer can see the other aircraft. But, I, as the PIC and responsible for the safe operation of my flight, will not accept a clearance to maintain visual separation from an aircraft that I cannot see, period. An angry controller demanding that we call the other aircraft in sight is not going to change that. As a result, I have been sent around several times at stl through the yrs, including this flight. This same situation occurs when runway 12L and runway 12R are in use. There has to be an offset with the higher aircraft at least slightly behind to allow both pilots of the higher aircraft to safely see the lower aircraft.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: S80 PIC CHALLENGES T75 VISUAL APCH PROC TO RWYS 30L AND 30R AT STL, AND EXECUTES A GAR.

Narrative: THE PURPOSE OF THIS DEBRIEF IS TO HIGHLIGHT WHAT I BELIEVE IS AN UNSAFE PRACTICE USED BY STL APCH CTL. BECAUSE THE RWYS ARE TOO CLOSE TOGETHER FOR SIMULTANEOUS PRECISION APCHS AT STL, THE PRACTICE WHEN VISUAL APCHS ARE IN EFFECT, IS TO USE THE ILS LOC OF THE R RWY AND THE OFFSET LDA LOC OF THE LEFT RWY. BECAUSE ACFT ARE OPERATING CLOSE TOGETHER, APCH CTL WILL CLR THE ACFT ON THE R RWY FOR A VISUAL APCH AND STEP DOWN THE ACFT ON THE L SIDE UNTIL THEY CAN ACCEPT VISUAL SEPARATION FROM THE ACFT ON THE R. THERE IS A PRACTICE USED BY STL APCH CTL, WHICH I BELIEVE IS INHERENTLY DANGEROUS. WHEN RUNNING VISUAL APCHS, THEY PUT ACFT LNDG RWY 30L ABEAM ACFT LNDG RWY 30R (AND REQUIRE THE HIGHER ACFT), WHICH IS THE ONE ON APCH FOR RWY 30L TO MAINTAIN VISUAL SEPARATION WITH THE ONE ON RWY 30R. THE PROB IS THAT, BECAUSE OF THE OFFSET OF THE RWY THRESHOLDS -- RWY 30R IS E OF RWY 30L -- IF BOTH ACFT ARE ON A NORMAL GS, WHICH, OF COURSE, WE ARE REQUIRED TO FLY, AND BOTH ACFT ARE ABEAM EACH OTHER -- IT IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR THE PLT IN THE L SEAT OF THE HIGHER ACFT ON THE RWY 30L APCH TO SEE THE ACFT ON THE RWY 30R APCH, BECAUSE IT IS OUT OF SIGHT BELOW AND TO THE R. I CANNOT ADDRESS HOW OTHER CAPTS HANDLE THIS. I'VE HEARD SOME GO AROUND, BUT MANY APPARENTLY ACCEPT THE CLRNC IF THEIR FO CAN SEE THE OTHER ACFT. BUT, I, AS THE PIC AND RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAFE OP OF MY FLT, WILL NOT ACCEPT A CLRNC TO MAINTAIN VISUAL SEPARATION FROM AN ACFT THAT I CANNOT SEE, PERIOD. AN ANGRY CTLR DEMANDING THAT WE CALL THE OTHER ACFT IN SIGHT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THAT. AS A RESULT, I HAVE BEEN SENT AROUND SEVERAL TIMES AT STL THROUGH THE YRS, INCLUDING THIS FLT. THIS SAME SIT OCCURS WHEN RWY 12L AND RWY 12R ARE IN USE. THERE HAS TO BE AN OFFSET WITH THE HIGHER ACFT AT LEAST SLIGHTLY BEHIND TO ALLOW BOTH PLTS OF THE HIGHER ACFT TO SAFELY SEE THE LOWER ACFT.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.