B737 flight crew gets concerned with vectors off coast of long island when the aircraft appears to b...

Attributes
ACN	587544
Time
Date	200307
Day	Thu
Local Time Of Day	1201 To 1800
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : zny.artcc
State Reference	NY
Altitude	msl single value : 23000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	artcc : zny.artcc
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B737-700
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Flight Phase	cruise : level
Route In Use	enroute : on vectors
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : instrument pilot : multi engine pilot : commercial
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 180 flight time total : 7000 flight time type : 1500
ASRS Report	587544
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 100 flight time total : 10000 flight time type : 4000
ASRS Report	587543
Events
Anomaly	non adherence : published procedure non adherence : company policies non adherence : far other anomaly other
Independent Detector	aircraft equipment other aircraft equipment : radar other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	controller : issued new clearance other
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew other Other
Supplementary
Problem Areas	Airspace Structure Aircraft ATC Human Performance Flight Crew Human Performance
Primary Problem	Aircraft

Narrative:

On flight to isp, first officer flying. Everything was normal up to the point in which ZNY started to vector us off course, just north of atlantic city for traffic. ZNY turned us to a heading of 95 degrees. We were on this heading for awhile when the captain asked how much longer will we be on this heading and if he knew that company could not go off shore more than 50 NM. The center controller said that he did not know this and he will have a turn for us in a little bit. We were getting very close to the 50 NM offshore when the captain told ZNY again that we cannot go past 50 NM. Center finally gave us a new heading of 85 degrees. Then about 1 min later, gave us direct sardi. As we turned back to the shore, the aircraft's radar was on and we painted the shore around 60 NM away. The captain asked for a phone number to call ZNY and they got very irritated and unprofessional towards us for questioning them. ZNY said we were tying up their frequency and to contact ZBW. After the frequency change, everything was back to normal and we landed without incident at long island. I believe if we did not question ATC, they would have had us off shore much further than we were. I think that this ATC controller not knowing that company cannot go past 50 NM offshore caused this event to happen. Supplement information from acn 587543: passing over the coast on J121, ATC gave us a easterly heading for traffic. His reply was I will have you back on course soon. I asked how many mi? There was no reply. I was using the radar and fixes near the coast to determine how far off we were and I believed we were getting close. ATC gave us a frequency change to ZBW and said I was tying up 'his' frequency by giving him a lesson. (Very rude and unprofessional.) it is very hard to tell exactly how far offshore you are which is why I was asking ATC how much longer on the heading that was rapidly taking us farther out. Since the heading was for traffic, I felt I couldn't just refuse the vector and turn back. We got no help from ATC. I think they need to be aware that we are not overwater equipped. Routing along J121 already takes us about 30 NM offshore and any easterly heading will almost surely take you beyond 50 NM.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: B737 FLT CREW GETS CONCERNED WITH VECTORS OFF COAST OF LONG ISLAND WHEN THE ACFT APPEARS TO BE EXCEEDING THE 50 NM LIMIT RESTR BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF OVERWATER EMER FLOTATION DEVICES, ON FREQ WITH ZNY, NY.

Narrative: ON FLT TO ISP, FO FLYING. EVERYTHING WAS NORMAL UP TO THE POINT IN WHICH ZNY STARTED TO VECTOR US OFF COURSE, JUST N OF ATLANTIC CITY FOR TFC. ZNY TURNED US TO A HDG OF 95 DEGS. WE WERE ON THIS HDG FOR AWHILE WHEN THE CAPT ASKED HOW MUCH LONGER WILL WE BE ON THIS HDG AND IF HE KNEW THAT COMPANY COULD NOT GO OFF SHORE MORE THAN 50 NM. THE CTR CTLR SAID THAT HE DID NOT KNOW THIS AND HE WILL HAVE A TURN FOR US IN A LITTLE BIT. WE WERE GETTING VERY CLOSE TO THE 50 NM OFFSHORE WHEN THE CAPT TOLD ZNY AGAIN THAT WE CANNOT GO PAST 50 NM. CTR FINALLY GAVE US A NEW HDG OF 85 DEGS. THEN ABOUT 1 MIN LATER, GAVE US DIRECT SARDI. AS WE TURNED BACK TO THE SHORE, THE ACFT'S RADAR WAS ON AND WE PAINTED THE SHORE AROUND 60 NM AWAY. THE CAPT ASKED FOR A PHONE NUMBER TO CALL ZNY AND THEY GOT VERY IRRITATED AND UNPROFESSIONAL TOWARDS US FOR QUESTIONING THEM. ZNY SAID WE WERE TYING UP THEIR FREQ AND TO CONTACT ZBW. AFTER THE FREQ CHANGE, EVERYTHING WAS BACK TO NORMAL AND WE LANDED WITHOUT INCIDENT AT LONG ISLAND. I BELIEVE IF WE DID NOT QUESTION ATC, THEY WOULD HAVE HAD US OFF SHORE MUCH FURTHER THAN WE WERE. I THINK THAT THIS ATC CTLR NOT KNOWING THAT COMPANY CANNOT GO PAST 50 NM OFFSHORE CAUSED THIS EVENT TO HAPPEN. SUPPLEMENT INFO FROM ACN 587543: PASSING OVER THE COAST ON J121, ATC GAVE US A EASTERLY HDG FOR TFC. HIS REPLY WAS I WILL HAVE YOU BACK ON COURSE SOON. I ASKED HOW MANY MI? THERE WAS NO REPLY. I WAS USING THE RADAR AND FIXES NEAR THE COAST TO DETERMINE HOW FAR OFF WE WERE AND I BELIEVED WE WERE GETTING CLOSE. ATC GAVE US A FREQ CHANGE TO ZBW AND SAID I WAS TYING UP 'HIS' FREQ BY GIVING HIM A LESSON. (VERY RUDE AND UNPROFESSIONAL.) IT IS VERY HARD TO TELL EXACTLY HOW FAR OFFSHORE YOU ARE WHICH IS WHY I WAS ASKING ATC HOW MUCH LONGER ON THE HDG THAT WAS RAPIDLY TAKING US FARTHER OUT. SINCE THE HDG WAS FOR TFC, I FELT I COULDN'T JUST REFUSE THE VECTOR AND TURN BACK. WE GOT NO HELP FROM ATC. I THINK THEY NEED TO BE AWARE THAT WE ARE NOT OVERWATER EQUIPPED. ROUTING ALONG J121 ALREADY TAKES US ABOUT 30 NM OFFSHORE AND ANY EASTERLY HDG WILL ALMOST SURELY TAKE YOU BEYOND 50 NM.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

B737 flight crew gets concerned with vectors off coast of long island when the aircraft appears to be exceeding the 50 NM limit restr because of the lack of overwater emergency flotation devices, on frequency with ZNY, ny.