Flight crew of C750 advised by sct controller that their departure path from smo caused a potential ...

Attributes
ACN	589293
Time
Date	200307
Day	Thu
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	airport : lax.airport
State Reference	CA
Altitude	msl single value : 3000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	tracon : sct.tracon
Operator	general aviation : corporate
Make Model Name	Citation X
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 91
Navigation In Use	other
Flight Phase	climbout : intermediate altitude
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : corporate
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : multi engine pilot : commercial pilot : cfi pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 130 flight time total : 6200 flight time type : 350
ASRS Report	589293
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 140 flight time total : 8000 flight time type : 1000
ASRS Report	589295
Events
Anomaly	airspace violation : entry conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : clearance non adherence : far
Independent Detector	other controllera
Resolutory Action	none taken : detected after the fact
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Supplementary
Problem Areas	Flight Crew Human Performance Airspace Structure ATC Human Performance
Primary Problem	Airspace Structure

Narrative:

On an IFR flight from smo to san we were given the following clearance from smo ground controller. 'Fly runway heading to the lax 310 degree radial, turn right to 250 degree radar vectors to join the lax 118 degrees to mzb 320 degrees, mzb direct san, maintain 3000 ft expect 11000 ft in 5 mins.' prior to takeoff the captain and I both tuned our respective vors to the lax 310 degree radial for the turn. We took off and when the CDI centered on the 310 degree radial from lax, we turned to the heading assigned in the clearance. The turn was at standard rate as commanded by the flight director. When we landed in san, we were told by the ground controller to call socal approach, who had a question for us. The socal controller advised that our turn was too late and a traffic conflict could have happened. We flew the departure as cleared and turned as instructed, so I'm not sure what else we could have done to avoid this again, given the same clearance. Supplemental information from acn 589295: the feeling I get when talking with other pilots is that the turn should be started prior to reaching the lax 310 degree radial. If a more specific clearance could be given by ground control or an FMS departure procedure developed this would reduce any ambiguity that may exist with present clrncs. Continuation of acn 589293: however since the 310 degree radial is on the edge of the lax class B airspace, I feel that ATC, and the company should work together to come up with a better departure. A turn to 250 degrees crossing the lax 311 degree radial, but prior to the 310 degree radial, should solve the problem. Also, ATC should understand that not all aircraft have the same turning radius at standard rate (speed varying), also should keep this in mind when working aircraft, so close to critical airspace boundaries. Another solution might be to fly the departure at a slower speed and turn at an angle greater than standard rate (not the safest option, or feasible). I do know that there are quite a few political issues involved here as well, in regards to the noise factor at smo.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: FLT CREW OF C750 ADVISED BY SCT CTLR THAT THEIR DEP PATH FROM SMO CAUSED A POTENTIAL CONFLICT WITH DEPS FROM THE N COMPLEX AT LAX.

Narrative: ON AN IFR FLT FROM SMO TO SAN WE WERE GIVEN THE FOLLOWING CLRNC FROM SMO GND CTLR. 'FLY RWY HEADING TO THE LAX 310 DEG RADIAL, TURN R TO 250 DEG RADAR VECTORS TO JOIN THE LAX 118 DEGS TO MZB 320 DEGS, MZB DIRECT SAN, MAINTAIN 3000 FT EXPECT 11000 FT IN 5 MINS.' PRIOR TO TKOF THE CAPT AND I BOTH TUNED OUR RESPECTIVE VORS TO THE LAX 310 DEG RADIAL FOR THE TURN. WE TOOK OFF AND WHEN THE CDI CTRED ON THE 310 DEG RADIAL FROM LAX, WE TURNED TO THE HEADING ASSIGNED IN THE CLRNC. THE TURN WAS AT STANDARD RATE AS COMMANDED BY THE FLT DIRECTOR. WHEN WE LANDED IN SAN, WE WERE TOLD BY THE GND CTLR TO CALL SOCAL APCH, WHO HAD A QUESTION FOR US. THE SOCAL CTLR ADVISED THAT OUR TURN WAS TOO LATE AND A TFC CONFLICT COULD HAVE HAPPENED. WE FLEW THE DEP AS CLRED AND TURNED AS INSTRUCTED, SO I'M NOT SURE WHAT ELSE WE COULD HAVE DONE TO AVOID THIS AGAIN, GIVEN THE SAME CLRNC. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 589295: THE FEELING I GET WHEN TALKING WITH OTHER PLTS IS THAT THE TURN SHOULD BE STARTED PRIOR TO REACHING THE LAX 310 DEG RADIAL. IF A MORE SPECIFIC CLRNC COULD BE GIVEN BY GND CTL OR AN FMS DEP PROC DEVELOPED THIS WOULD REDUCE ANY AMBIGUITY THAT MAY EXIST WITH PRESENT CLRNCS. CONTINUATION OF ACN 589293: HOWEVER SINCE THE 310 DEG RADIAL IS ON THE EDGE OF THE LAX CLASS B AIRSPACE, I FEEL THAT ATC, AND THE COMPANY SHOULD WORK TOGETHER TO COME UP WITH A BETTER DEP. A TURN TO 250 DEGS XING THE LAX 311 DEG RADIAL, BUT PRIOR TO THE 310 DEG RADIAL, SHOULD SOLVE THE PROB. ALSO, ATC SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT NOT ALL ACFT HAVE THE SAME TURNING RADIUS AT STANDARD RATE (SPD VARYING), ALSO SHOULD KEEP THIS IN MIND WHEN WORKING ACFT, SO CLOSE TO CRITICAL AIRSPACE BOUNDARIES. ANOTHER SOLUTION MIGHT BE TO FLY THE DEP AT A SLOWER SPD AND TURN AT AN ANGLE GREATER THAN STANDARD RATE (NOT THE SAFEST OPTION, OR FEASIBLE). I DO KNOW THAT THERE ARE QUITE A FEW POLITICAL ISSUES INVOLVED HERE AS WELL, IN REGARDS TO THE NOISE FACTOR AT SMO.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

Flight crew of C750 advised by sct controller that their departure path from smo caused a potential conflict with departures from the north complex at lax.