<< >> NASA ASRS Report 593623, September 2003

B767 flight crew is given late descent clearance on civet arrival into lax and is unable to make the crossing restr.

Attributes
ACN	593623
Time
Date	200309
Day	Fri
Local Time Of Day	1801 To 2400
Place
Locale Reference	intersection : civet
State Reference	CA
Altitude	msl bound lower : 17000 msl bound upper : 19000
Environment
Light	Night
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	artcc : zla.artcc tracon : sct.tracon
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B767 Undifferentiated or Other Model
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Navigation In Use	other
Flight Phase	descent : intermediate altitude
Route In Use	arrival star : mitts
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
ASRS Report	593623
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Events
Anomaly	altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met non adherence : clearance non adherence : published procedure
Independent Detector	other flight crewa other flight crewb
Resolutory Action	none taken : anomaly accepted
Consequence	faa : reviewed incident with flight crew
Supplementary
Problem Areas	Flight Crew Human Performance Airspace Structure ATC Human Performance
Primary Problem	Flight Crew Human Performance

Narrative:

Cleared to the civet intersection at FL190, to expect the approach to runway 25L. Second controller cleared us for the mitts arrival to runway 24R, believe we were less than 10 mi from civet, but gave us no clearance to descend below FL190. Shortly before civet, less than 2 mins, given 'descend via the mitts arrival.' due to the compression of events, we were not able to make the crossing restr of 'below 17000 ft.' no query from the controller. In retrospect probably should have made a call to him requesting relief from the 17000 ft restr. My question is, if we were effectively at the first point on the STAR without a descent clearance, which I contend we probably were, and then cleared to descend via the STAR, does the next fix become the controling altitude?

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: B767 FLT CREW IS GIVEN LATE DSCNT CLRNC ON CIVET ARR INTO LAX AND IS UNABLE TO MAKE THE XING RESTR.

Narrative: CLRED TO THE CIVET INTXN AT FL190, TO EXPECT THE APCH TO RWY 25L. SECOND CTLR CLRED US FOR THE MITTS ARR TO RWY 24R, BELIEVE WE WERE LESS THAN 10 MI FROM CIVET, BUT GAVE US NO CLRNC TO DSND BELOW FL190. SHORTLY BEFORE CIVET, LESS THAN 2 MINS, GIVEN 'DSND VIA THE MITTS ARR.' DUE TO THE COMPRESSION OF EVENTS, WE WERE NOT ABLE TO MAKE THE XING RESTR OF 'BELOW 17000 FT.' NO QUERY FROM THE CTLR. IN RETROSPECT PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE MADE A CALL TO HIM REQUESTING RELIEF FROM THE 17000 FT RESTR. MY QUESTION IS, IF WE WERE EFFECTIVELY AT THE FIRST POINT ON THE STAR WITHOUT A DSCNT CLRNC, WHICH I CONTEND WE PROBABLY WERE, AND THEN CLRED TO DSND VIA THE STAR, DOES THE NEXT FIX BECOME THE CTLING ALT?

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.