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MD80 flight crew is concerned with not complying with altitude crossing restr during arrival into lax.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 597344 |
| Time | |
| Date | 200310 |
| Day | Wed |
| Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | navaid : fim.vortac |
| State Reference | CA |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 12000 msl bound upper : 13000 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | artcc : zla.artcc tracon : sct.tracon |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | MD-80 Series (DC-9-80) Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | other vortac |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach |
| Route In Use | arrival star : sadde |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 250 flight time total : 12000 flight time type : 8000 |
| ASRS Report | 597344 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | altitude deviation : undershoot altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met non adherence : published procedure other anomaly |
| Independent Detector | other controllera other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance |
| Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
| Supplementary | |
| Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance Aircraft ATC Human Performance |
| Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
| Air Traffic Incident | Inter Facility Coordination Failure |
Narrative:
During our initial descent on the sadde 6 arrival to lax, we were asked to slow to 280 KTS (from 320 KTS). Controller specified to get to the speed, then continue our descent. We were slowing quickly and crossed fillmore at approximately FL180, putting us high on the descent to make a crossing restr of 12000 ft, 12 DME southeast of fillmore. When we were switched over to socal approach, the controller asked if we were descending. Our reply was yes, but at 280 KTS as instructed (we also had full speed brakes deployed). He noted we wouldn't make the restr and our reply was that he was correct, considering our speed. He then acted surprised we were not at normal speed, reclred us at normal speed and we crossed symon 1000 ft high. The problem arose by being given a speed reduction late in the descent. Also, frequency congestion made it hard to try to get the restr waved, as is common practice on that arrival. The problem really wasn't discovered until handed off to approach. Our corrective was to descend at normal speed, once the 'problem' was discovered by the approach controller. In the future, we will communicate the possibility of a problem when given a speed reduction and not assume it to be the way it usually is. That is, crossing the waypoint high is ok as long as the proper speed is being flown. Also, it often seems that center and approach are not communicating well with each other (not just in los angeles but other areas as well) as we find our speed assignments by center are a surprise to approach control.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: MD80 FLT CREW IS CONCERNED WITH NOT COMPLYING WITH ALT XING RESTR DURING ARR INTO LAX.
Narrative: DURING OUR INITIAL DSCNT ON THE SADDE 6 ARR TO LAX, WE WERE ASKED TO SLOW TO 280 KTS (FROM 320 KTS). CTLR SPECIFIED TO GET TO THE SPD, THEN CONTINUE OUR DSCNT. WE WERE SLOWING QUICKLY AND CROSSED FILLMORE AT APPROX FL180, PUTTING US HIGH ON THE DSCNT TO MAKE A XING RESTR OF 12000 FT, 12 DME SE OF FILLMORE. WHEN WE WERE SWITCHED OVER TO SOCAL APCH, THE CTLR ASKED IF WE WERE DSNDING. OUR REPLY WAS YES, BUT AT 280 KTS AS INSTRUCTED (WE ALSO HAD FULL SPD BRAKES DEPLOYED). HE NOTED WE WOULDN'T MAKE THE RESTR AND OUR REPLY WAS THAT HE WAS CORRECT, CONSIDERING OUR SPD. HE THEN ACTED SURPRISED WE WERE NOT AT NORMAL SPD, RECLRED US AT NORMAL SPD AND WE CROSSED SYMON 1000 FT HIGH. THE PROB AROSE BY BEING GIVEN A SPD REDUCTION LATE IN THE DSCNT. ALSO, FREQ CONGESTION MADE IT HARD TO TRY TO GET THE RESTR WAVED, AS IS COMMON PRACTICE ON THAT ARR. THE PROB REALLY WASN'T DISCOVERED UNTIL HANDED OFF TO APCH. OUR CORRECTIVE WAS TO DSND AT NORMAL SPD, ONCE THE 'PROB' WAS DISCOVERED BY THE APCH CTLR. IN THE FUTURE, WE WILL COMMUNICATE THE POSSIBILITY OF A PROB WHEN GIVEN A SPD REDUCTION AND NOT ASSUME IT TO BE THE WAY IT USUALLY IS. THAT IS, XING THE WAYPOINT HIGH IS OK AS LONG AS THE PROPER SPD IS BEING FLOWN. ALSO, IT OFTEN SEEMS THAT CTR AND APCH ARE NOT COMMUNICATING WELL WITH EACH OTHER (NOT JUST IN LOS ANGELES BUT OTHER AREAS AS WELL) AS WE FIND OUR SPD ASSIGNMENTS BY CTR ARE A SURPRISE TO APCH CTL.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.