Narrative:

Departed las on the tralr RNAV one departure. We were given a 050 degree turn off runway 1R after departure at 5000 ft and climbing 4000 FPM. We were given climb to FL190 and comply with restr. I put the autoplt on at 5000 ft and my first officer dialed in FL190 in the altitude alerter (7000 ft was in there). I added power and pulled back on the yoke. At about 8500 ft my first officer said we needed to be at or below 7000 ft at napse intersection. By the time I got it stopped and on the way back down we hit 9200 ft or so. The controller gave me a heading of 080 degrees and said not to worry with the altitude. He then gave me 10000 ft. After we started back up to 10000 ft we got FL190 again. In my opinion, the controllers shouldn't give the new altitude first. They should read 'comply with 7000 ft restr, then climb and maintain FL190.' we didn't have these problems until we started these RNAV departures. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: during a lengthy phone call the reporter was vociferous in his rebuke of the techniques being employed in the use of these RNAV departures at las. Subsequent to this incident, he has filed another ASRS report wherein his attempts to determine whether he should cross the restr fix as illustrated or climb directly to the newly cleared altitude was met with consternation from the departure controller, who was adamant in expressing that his clearance to the higher altitude was obviously without restr. It is worth noting that this incident occurred after an agreement to include the 7000 ft restr common to these departures as a part of the initial clearance prior to takeoff. It is conceivable that this action has triggered yet another dichotomy in the understanding of pilots and controllers as to whether the illustrated altitude restr is still a restr or merely the initially cleared altitude. It appears that significant attempts to achieve universally acceptable and functional procedures to alleviate the problems at las have failed. Reporter emphasized that agreed to phraseology to eliminate the confusion is necessary and that the FMC on his aircraft needs significant attention to detail in response to these clrncs to overcome its inherent shortcomings. A technical detail of note. Reporter advised that he was flying the aircraft with the autoplt in the 'control wheel steering mode.' in this mode the inputs to the autoplt are made by manual movements of the flight controls which in turn signal the autoplt to comply appropriately. This mode is the explanation for why the narrative uses phrases appropriate to manual flight when, in fact, the autoplt was engaged. It should be noted that all lateral and vertical navigation in this mode is conducted by the pilot monitoring the normal flight instruments and inputting control actions to comply with the desired lateral and vertical tracks and paths. The path of flight in this mode is independent of the FMC computed track.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: AFTER BEING RADAR VECTORED OFF THE LAS TRALR RNAV DEP, FLT CREW OF B737 IS RECLRED TO A FIX ON THE DEP AND CLBED THROUGH THE AT OR BELOW 7000 FT RESTR AT NAPSE.

Narrative: DEPARTED LAS ON THE TRALR RNAV ONE DEP. WE WERE GIVEN A 050 DEG TURN OFF RWY 1R AFTER DEP AT 5000 FT AND CLBING 4000 FPM. WE WERE GIVEN CLB TO FL190 AND COMPLY WITH RESTR. I PUT THE AUTOPLT ON AT 5000 FT AND MY FO DIALED IN FL190 IN THE ALT ALERTER (7000 FT WAS IN THERE). I ADDED PWR AND PULLED BACK ON THE YOKE. AT ABOUT 8500 FT MY FO SAID WE NEEDED TO BE AT OR BELOW 7000 FT AT NAPSE INTXN. BY THE TIME I GOT IT STOPPED AND ON THE WAY BACK DOWN WE HIT 9200 FT OR SO. THE CTLR GAVE ME A HEADING OF 080 DEGS AND SAID NOT TO WORRY WITH THE ALT. HE THEN GAVE ME 10000 FT. AFTER WE STARTED BACK UP TO 10000 FT WE GOT FL190 AGAIN. IN MY OPINION, THE CTLRS SHOULDN'T GIVE THE NEW ALT FIRST. THEY SHOULD READ 'COMPLY WITH 7000 FT RESTR, THEN CLB AND MAINTAIN FL190.' WE DIDN'T HAVE THESE PROBS UNTIL WE STARTED THESE RNAV DEPS. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: DURING A LENGTHY PHONE CALL THE RPTR WAS VOCIFEROUS IN HIS REBUKE OF THE TECHNIQUES BEING EMPLOYED IN THE USE OF THESE RNAV DEPS AT LAS. SUBSEQUENT TO THIS INCIDENT, HE HAS FILED ANOTHER ASRS RPT WHEREIN HIS ATTEMPTS TO DETERMINE WHETHER HE SHOULD CROSS THE RESTR FIX AS ILLUSTRATED OR CLB DIRECTLY TO THE NEWLY CLRED ALT WAS MET WITH CONSTERNATION FROM THE DEP CTLR, WHO WAS ADAMANT IN EXPRESSING THAT HIS CLRNC TO THE HIGHER ALT WAS OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT RESTR. IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT THIS INCIDENT OCCURRED AFTER AN AGREEMENT TO INCLUDE THE 7000 FT RESTR COMMON TO THESE DEPS AS A PART OF THE INITIAL CLRNC PRIOR TO TKOF. IT IS CONCEIVABLE THAT THIS ACTION HAS TRIGGERED YET ANOTHER DICHOTOMY IN THE UNDERSTANDING OF PLTS AND CTLRS AS TO WHETHER THE ILLUSTRATED ALT RESTR IS STILL A RESTR OR MERELY THE INITIALLY CLRED ALT. IT APPEARS THAT SIGNIFICANT ATTEMPTS TO ACHIEVE UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTABLE AND FUNCTIONAL PROCS TO ALLEVIATE THE PROBS AT LAS HAVE FAILED. RPTR EMPHASIZED THAT AGREED TO PHRASEOLOGY TO ELIMINATE THE CONFUSION IS NECESSARY AND THAT THE FMC ON HIS ACFT NEEDS SIGNIFICANT ATTN TO DETAIL IN RESPONSE TO THESE CLRNCS TO OVERCOME ITS INHERENT SHORTCOMINGS. A TECHNICAL DETAIL OF NOTE. RPTR ADVISED THAT HE WAS FLYING THE ACFT WITH THE AUTOPLT IN THE 'CTL WHEEL STEERING MODE.' IN THIS MODE THE INPUTS TO THE AUTOPLT ARE MADE BY MANUAL MOVEMENTS OF THE FLT CTLS WHICH IN TURN SIGNAL THE AUTOPLT TO COMPLY APPROPRIATELY. THIS MODE IS THE EXPLANATION FOR WHY THE NARRATIVE USES PHRASES APPROPRIATE TO MANUAL FLT WHEN, IN FACT, THE AUTOPLT WAS ENGAGED. IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT ALL LATERAL AND VERT NAV IN THIS MODE IS CONDUCTED BY THE PLT MONITORING THE NORMAL FLT INSTS AND INPUTTING CTL ACTIONS TO COMPLY WITH THE DESIRED LATERAL AND VERT TRACKS AND PATHS. THE PATH OF FLT IN THIS MODE IS INDEPENDENT OF THE FMC COMPUTED TRACK.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.