Narrative:

It was the first lesson to renew a CFI certificate. The lesson started out routinely and continued throughout most of the flight. The preflight lesson discussion took place at the service counter. It was initiated when I asked, 'what are we going to do today?' instructor said we'd do 'some lndgs, MCA, stalls to get you used to the plane.' after that, I went outside to preflight the airplane. From engine start to the practice area, everything was normal. Don't recall anything unusual. Factor that might affect the quality of training to include new student and instructor relationship where both may not know each other's habits, skills and/or communications style. Although, it was the student's first flight in over 6 yrs, I believe that fact did not contribute to the incident. Departed to the southeast for air work. First off, I did minimum ctlable airspeed followed by some power off stalls and power on stalls. Next, I did steep turns to the right, 1 steep turn to the left and after the instructor demonstrated one to the left, we did 1 simulated emergency landing followed by a go around procedure. Then we headed back to south st paul for some lndgs with me under the hood for basic instrument work. I made a 45 degree entry to upwind for runway 34 with normal calls to the traffic area. We did a total of 3 lndgs. It was on the third landing that the incident occurred. During the third takeoff and climb, instructor discussed and wanted to demonstrate braking when one side (left brake) failed, on the third landing. As we turned crosswind, my microphone was not working and I could hear the instructor intermittently. At that point, instructor took controls at crosswind and downwind as I troubleshot headset, with no resolution on the headset. I was given control back abeam runway 34 for a no-flaps landing. Touchdown was on centerline. Rollout was when the differential braking technique was introduced. At that time, I was unclr as to who had total control when instructor demonstrated and asked me to follow along with left rudder and right brake (simulating left brake out). I had the control wheel with my left hand and the right hand on the throttle when instructor said to use right brake and left rudder. The pedals were already depressed at that point and I understood it as I was following along with the instructor's action. We started to skid to the right and I tried to apply full brakes as we continued to skid into one runway light on the right side. The right landing gear strut was struck resulting in a hand-sized dent, and on the propeller, with damage on the leading edges of both blades. At this point, instructor taxied off the runway. I did after landing checklist and I taxied back to the front of the FBO. Instructor parked the plane. We did engine shutdown. I believe the cause of the incident was a breakdown in communication between the student and instructor. There was no clear communication to who had total control during the maneuver. The preflight lesson brief also did not include a discussion of this maneuver. This demonstration was not important when the objective was to familiarize the student to flying again and to the new airplane. Snow covered runway was also not the proper environment to practice brake failure technique. Supplemental information from acn 607911: after spending time with him, I could tell that he was rusty and was going to need some practice reviewing procedures. When I would command control of the aircraft, he would say 'the aircraft is yours' and I would in return comment, 'I have control of the aircraft.' at this point I felt that we had a good level of communication and he understood the role of change of controls to who would be the pilot flying. I had instructed him to make this landing a 0 degree flap landing and to use as much aerodynamic braking as possible and use as much of the runway as needed. As we were rolling down the runway, he then had pushed the yoke forward on the aircraft which caused the nosewheel to shimmy. I had immediately pulled back on the yoke to correct him for the procedure. As we continued to roll reducing speed, I kept telling him to pull back on the yoke increasing aerodynamic braking and slowly brake due to the slippery runway. I noticed that he was real quick with the rudder/brakes and told him to release them and roll out on the centerline. He had started to veer off to the right when I told him to proceed back to the center of the runway with both feet on the rudder and brakes, rolling out down the runway and not to try to make the taxiway. He said, 'could make this turn,' and I had both my feet on the rudder/brakes when I had noticed he had locked both brakes forward. We continued to drift to the right and I had commanded him to release the controls to myself. At that time he had reached down and advanced full throttle and I reached down and knocked his hand off, pulling the throttle to idle and commanded him to release the controls so I could have full and complete control of the aircraft. At this time he was ignoring me and was fighting me for the controls of the aircraft. I again demanded the controls of the aircraft from him and he refused. I was continuing to push on the left rudder and tried to release the brakes as he was still unwilling to release the controls to me. At this point I was doing everything that I could do to take control, fighting him for the controls, in an attempt to take control of the aircraft. We had then slid into the taxi lights and rolled back out onto the runway. At this point, I finally was able to take over full control of the aircraft and then I proceeded to taxi the aircraft off of the runway. I felt that I had done everything physically possible to take control of the aircraft at that point, short of punching the guy. He had restricteded my ability to take control to the point where it was impossible for me to prevent what had happened. When I asked him why he would not release the controls, he said that he could not hear me because his headset had quit working. After we secured the aircraft and were outside, I walked around the aircraft and noticed that we had a propeller strike and a strike to the right gear. Notified the FAA.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: A STUDENT RENEWING HIS CFI FOUGHT FOR CTL OF THE C172 WITH THE INSTRUCTOR CONDUCTING THE LESSON DURING LNDG ROLLOUT AT SGS, WHICH RESULTED IN ACFT DAMAGE.

Narrative: IT WAS THE FIRST LESSON TO RENEW A CFI CERTIFICATE. THE LESSON STARTED OUT ROUTINELY AND CONTINUED THROUGHOUT MOST OF THE FLT. THE PREFLT LESSON DISCUSSION TOOK PLACE AT THE SVC COUNTER. IT WAS INITIATED WHEN I ASKED, 'WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO TODAY?' INSTRUCTOR SAID WE'D DO 'SOME LNDGS, MCA, STALLS TO GET YOU USED TO THE PLANE.' AFTER THAT, I WENT OUTSIDE TO PREFLT THE AIRPLANE. FROM ENG START TO THE PRACTICE AREA, EVERYTHING WAS NORMAL. DON'T RECALL ANYTHING UNUSUAL. FACTOR THAT MIGHT AFFECT THE QUALITY OF TRAINING TO INCLUDE NEW STUDENT AND INSTRUCTOR RELATIONSHIP WHERE BOTH MAY NOT KNOW EACH OTHER'S HABITS, SKILLS AND/OR COMS STYLE. ALTHOUGH, IT WAS THE STUDENT'S FIRST FLT IN OVER 6 YRS, I BELIEVE THAT FACT DID NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE INCIDENT. DEPARTED TO THE SE FOR AIR WORK. FIRST OFF, I DID MINIMUM CTLABLE AIRSPD FOLLOWED BY SOME PWR OFF STALLS AND PWR ON STALLS. NEXT, I DID STEEP TURNS TO THE R, 1 STEEP TURN TO THE L AND AFTER THE INSTRUCTOR DEMONSTRATED ONE TO THE L, WE DID 1 SIMULATED EMER LNDG FOLLOWED BY A GAR PROC. THEN WE HEADED BACK TO SOUTH ST PAUL FOR SOME LNDGS WITH ME UNDER THE HOOD FOR BASIC INST WORK. I MADE A 45 DEG ENTRY TO UPWIND FOR RWY 34 WITH NORMAL CALLS TO THE TFC AREA. WE DID A TOTAL OF 3 LNDGS. IT WAS ON THE THIRD LNDG THAT THE INCIDENT OCCURRED. DURING THE THIRD TKOF AND CLB, INSTRUCTOR DISCUSSED AND WANTED TO DEMONSTRATE BRAKING WHEN ONE SIDE (L BRAKE) FAILED, ON THE THIRD LNDG. AS WE TURNED XWIND, MY MIKE WAS NOT WORKING AND I COULD HEAR THE INSTRUCTOR INTERMITTENTLY. AT THAT POINT, INSTRUCTOR TOOK CTLS AT XWIND AND DOWNWIND AS I TROUBLESHOT HEADSET, WITH NO RESOLUTION ON THE HEADSET. I WAS GIVEN CTL BACK ABEAM RWY 34 FOR A NO-FLAPS LNDG. TOUCHDOWN WAS ON CTRLINE. ROLLOUT WAS WHEN THE DIFFERENTIAL BRAKING TECHNIQUE WAS INTRODUCED. AT THAT TIME, I WAS UNCLR AS TO WHO HAD TOTAL CTL WHEN INSTRUCTOR DEMONSTRATED AND ASKED ME TO FOLLOW ALONG WITH L RUDDER AND R BRAKE (SIMULATING L BRAKE OUT). I HAD THE CTL WHEEL WITH MY L HAND AND THE R HAND ON THE THROTTLE WHEN INSTRUCTOR SAID TO USE R BRAKE AND L RUDDER. THE PEDALS WERE ALREADY DEPRESSED AT THAT POINT AND I UNDERSTOOD IT AS I WAS FOLLOWING ALONG WITH THE INSTRUCTOR'S ACTION. WE STARTED TO SKID TO THE R AND I TRIED TO APPLY FULL BRAKES AS WE CONTINUED TO SKID INTO ONE RWY LIGHT ON THE R SIDE. THE R LNDG GEAR STRUT WAS STRUCK RESULTING IN A HAND-SIZED DENT, AND ON THE PROP, WITH DAMAGE ON THE LEADING EDGES OF BOTH BLADES. AT THIS POINT, INSTRUCTOR TAXIED OFF THE RWY. I DID AFTER LNDG CHKLIST AND I TAXIED BACK TO THE FRONT OF THE FBO. INSTRUCTOR PARKED THE PLANE. WE DID ENG SHUTDOWN. I BELIEVE THE CAUSE OF THE INCIDENT WAS A BREAKDOWN IN COM BTWN THE STUDENT AND INSTRUCTOR. THERE WAS NO CLR COM TO WHO HAD TOTAL CTL DURING THE MANEUVER. THE PREFLT LESSON BRIEF ALSO DID NOT INCLUDE A DISCUSSION OF THIS MANEUVER. THIS DEMONSTRATION WAS NOT IMPORTANT WHEN THE OBJECTIVE WAS TO FAMILIARIZE THE STUDENT TO FLYING AGAIN AND TO THE NEW AIRPLANE. SNOW COVERED RWY WAS ALSO NOT THE PROPER ENVIRONMENT TO PRACTICE BRAKE FAILURE TECHNIQUE. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 607911: AFTER SPENDING TIME WITH HIM, I COULD TELL THAT HE WAS RUSTY AND WAS GOING TO NEED SOME PRACTICE REVIEWING PROCS. WHEN I WOULD COMMAND CTL OF THE ACFT, HE WOULD SAY 'THE ACFT IS YOURS' AND I WOULD IN RETURN COMMENT, 'I HAVE CTL OF THE ACFT.' AT THIS POINT I FELT THAT WE HAD A GOOD LEVEL OF COM AND HE UNDERSTOOD THE ROLE OF CHANGE OF CTLS TO WHO WOULD BE THE PLT FLYING. I HAD INSTRUCTED HIM TO MAKE THIS LNDG A 0 DEG FLAP LNDG AND TO USE AS MUCH AERODYNAMIC BRAKING AS POSSIBLE AND USE AS MUCH OF THE RWY AS NEEDED. AS WE WERE ROLLING DOWN THE RWY, HE THEN HAD PUSHED THE YOKE FORWARD ON THE ACFT WHICH CAUSED THE NOSEWHEEL TO SHIMMY. I HAD IMMEDIATELY PULLED BACK ON THE YOKE TO CORRECT HIM FOR THE PROC. AS WE CONTINUED TO ROLL REDUCING SPD, I KEPT TELLING HIM TO PULL BACK ON THE YOKE INCREASING AERODYNAMIC BRAKING AND SLOWLY BRAKE DUE TO THE SLIPPERY RWY. I NOTICED THAT HE WAS REAL QUICK WITH THE RUDDER/BRAKES AND TOLD HIM TO RELEASE THEM AND ROLL OUT ON THE CTRLINE. HE HAD STARTED TO VEER OFF TO THE R WHEN I TOLD HIM TO PROCEED BACK TO THE CTR OF THE RWY WITH BOTH FEET ON THE RUDDER AND BRAKES, ROLLING OUT DOWN THE RWY AND NOT TO TRY TO MAKE THE TXWY. HE SAID, 'COULD MAKE THIS TURN,' AND I HAD BOTH MY FEET ON THE RUDDER/BRAKES WHEN I HAD NOTICED HE HAD LOCKED BOTH BRAKES FORWARD. WE CONTINUED TO DRIFT TO THE R AND I HAD COMMANDED HIM TO RELEASE THE CTLS TO MYSELF. AT THAT TIME HE HAD REACHED DOWN AND ADVANCED FULL THROTTLE AND I REACHED DOWN AND KNOCKED HIS HAND OFF, PULLING THE THROTTLE TO IDLE AND COMMANDED HIM TO RELEASE THE CTLS SO I COULD HAVE FULL AND COMPLETE CTL OF THE ACFT. AT THIS TIME HE WAS IGNORING ME AND WAS FIGHTING ME FOR THE CTLS OF THE ACFT. I AGAIN DEMANDED THE CTLS OF THE ACFT FROM HIM AND HE REFUSED. I WAS CONTINUING TO PUSH ON THE L RUDDER AND TRIED TO RELEASE THE BRAKES AS HE WAS STILL UNWILLING TO RELEASE THE CTLS TO ME. AT THIS POINT I WAS DOING EVERYTHING THAT I COULD DO TO TAKE CTL, FIGHTING HIM FOR THE CTLS, IN AN ATTEMPT TO TAKE CTL OF THE ACFT. WE HAD THEN SLID INTO THE TAXI LIGHTS AND ROLLED BACK OUT ONTO THE RWY. AT THIS POINT, I FINALLY WAS ABLE TO TAKE OVER FULL CTL OF THE ACFT AND THEN I PROCEEDED TO TAXI THE ACFT OFF OF THE RWY. I FELT THAT I HAD DONE EVERYTHING PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE TO TAKE CTL OF THE ACFT AT THAT POINT, SHORT OF PUNCHING THE GUY. HE HAD RESTRICTEDED MY ABILITY TO TAKE CTL TO THE POINT WHERE IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO PREVENT WHAT HAD HAPPENED. WHEN I ASKED HIM WHY HE WOULD NOT RELEASE THE CTLS, HE SAID THAT HE COULD NOT HEAR ME BECAUSE HIS HEADSET HAD QUIT WORKING. AFTER WE SECURED THE ACFT AND WERE OUTSIDE, I WALKED AROUND THE ACFT AND NOTICED THAT WE HAD A PROP STRIKE AND A STRIKE TO THE R GEAR. NOTIFIED THE FAA.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.