37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 641330 |
Time | |
Date | 200412 |
Day | Fri |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : mlu.airport |
State Reference | LA |
Altitude | msl single value : 2300 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : mlu.tracon |
Operator | general aviation : instructional |
Make Model Name | Skyhawk 172/Cutlass 172 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 91 |
Navigation In Use | ils localizer & glide slope : 4 other ndb |
Flight Phase | descent : holding |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : mlu.tracon |
Make Model Name | Super King Air 200 HDC |
Route In Use | approach : straight in |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | other |
Function | instruction : instructor |
Qualification | pilot : instrument pilot : commercial pilot : cfi |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 80 flight time total : 1600 flight time type : 70 |
ASRS Report | 641330 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | other |
Function | instruction : trainee |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : excursion from assigned altitude conflict : airborne critical non adherence : clearance non adherence : published procedure |
Independent Detector | atc equipment other atc equipment : radar/mode c other controllera other flight crewa other flight crewb |
Resolutory Action | none taken : detected after the fact |
Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
Miss Distance | horizontal : 3000 vertical : 300 |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | ATC Human Performance Flight Crew Human Performance |
Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Narrative:
My student and I were on an IFR clearance, practicing instrument approachs and holding procedures. We were cleared to hold over the sabar NDB at 3000 ft. After 3 turns in the holding pattern, I requested to exit the hold and shoot the ILS to runway 4 via my own navigation. The controller instructed me to maintain 3000 ft over sabar and proceed outbound on the approach and that he would call our procedure turn outbound. I understood this clearance to be, maintain 3000 ft until we were past sabar then we could descend to our prescribed altitude on our approach plates and wait for the controller to call our procedure turn. Once established on the outbound course and past sabar, we started our descent to 2000 ft. At around 2300 ft, I saw a king air come and pass right off our right wing at a slightly lower altitude. Immediately the controller asked our altitude, and I responded 2300 ft. He then said 'I told you to maintain 3000 ft.' I said 'you told us to maintain 3000 ft over sabar.' I am certain he did not tell us to maintain 3000 ft outbound but only 3000 ft over sabar. I think that things like this could be avoided if controllers were more specific about what they want you to do. There should also be a set standard on what they say. There is a lot of controllers who say things different ways than other controllers would. Also, monroe regional has 2 separate approach/departure frequencys. One is for west of the airport, and the other is for the east. The same controller handles both frequencys though. A lot of times, 2 separate airplane contact the controller at the same time, but since they can't hear each other because of the different frequency it gets real frustrating. The king air was on the other frequency but I couldn't hear him, only the controller. If I would have heard him communicating also I think I would have solved the problem way before it ever happened.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: A C172 STUDENT AND FLT INSTRUCTOR VFR TRAINING MISUNDERSTOOD MLU APCH INSTRUCTIONS AND HAVE A CONFLICT WITH A KING AIR.
Narrative: MY STUDENT AND I WERE ON AN IFR CLRNC, PRACTICING INST APCHS AND HOLDING PROCS. WE WERE CLRED TO HOLD OVER THE SABAR NDB AT 3000 FT. AFTER 3 TURNS IN THE HOLDING PATTERN, I REQUESTED TO EXIT THE HOLD AND SHOOT THE ILS TO RWY 4 VIA MY OWN NAV. THE CTLR INSTRUCTED ME TO MAINTAIN 3000 FT OVER SABAR AND PROCEED OUTBOUND ON THE APCH AND THAT HE WOULD CALL OUR PROC TURN OUTBOUND. I UNDERSTOOD THIS CLRNC TO BE, MAINTAIN 3000 FT UNTIL WE WERE PAST SABAR THEN WE COULD DSND TO OUR PRESCRIBED ALT ON OUR APCH PLATES AND WAIT FOR THE CTLR TO CALL OUR PROC TURN. ONCE ESTABLISHED ON THE OUTBOUND COURSE AND PAST SABAR, WE STARTED OUR DSCNT TO 2000 FT. AT AROUND 2300 FT, I SAW A KING AIR COME AND PASS RIGHT OFF OUR R WING AT A SLIGHTLY LOWER ALT. IMMEDIATELY THE CTLR ASKED OUR ALT, AND I RESPONDED 2300 FT. HE THEN SAID 'I TOLD YOU TO MAINTAIN 3000 FT.' I SAID 'YOU TOLD US TO MAINTAIN 3000 FT OVER SABAR.' I AM CERTAIN HE DID NOT TELL US TO MAINTAIN 3000 FT OUTBOUND BUT ONLY 3000 FT OVER SABAR. I THINK THAT THINGS LIKE THIS COULD BE AVOIDED IF CTLRS WERE MORE SPECIFIC ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO DO. THERE SHOULD ALSO BE A SET STANDARD ON WHAT THEY SAY. THERE IS A LOT OF CTLRS WHO SAY THINGS DIFFERENT WAYS THAN OTHER CTLRS WOULD. ALSO, MONROE REGIONAL HAS 2 SEPARATE APCH/DEP FREQS. ONE IS FOR W OF THE ARPT, AND THE OTHER IS FOR THE E. THE SAME CTLR HANDLES BOTH FREQS THOUGH. A LOT OF TIMES, 2 SEPARATE AIRPLANE CONTACT THE CTLR AT THE SAME TIME, BUT SINCE THEY CAN'T HEAR EACH OTHER BECAUSE OF THE DIFFERENT FREQ IT GETS REAL FRUSTRATING. THE KING AIR WAS ON THE OTHER FREQ BUT I COULDN'T HEAR HIM, ONLY THE CTLR. IF I WOULD HAVE HEARD HIM COMMUNICATING ALSO I THINK I WOULD HAVE SOLVED THE PROB WAY BEFORE IT EVER HAPPENED.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.