37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 735211 |
Time | |
Date | 200704 |
Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : ord.airport |
State Reference | IL |
Altitude | agl single value : 0 |
Environment | |
Weather Elements | other |
Aircraft 1 | |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | MD-80 Series (DC-9-80) Undifferentiated or Other Model |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | ground : taxi |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
ASRS Report | 735211 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | government : faa |
Function | controller : local |
Events | |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | other |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance Weather ATC Human Performance Airport |
Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Narrative:
During taxi to runway 32L intersection T10 takeoff; we were advised by ground and ATIS that wind was approximately 080 degrees at 8 KTS. A slight tailwind; so we set up for maximum power takeoff and calculated what the full 10 KT tailwind weight penalty was; which we were legal for; if necessary. Approaching the runway; we noted another aircraft pull off runway 32L and head towards runway 9L. We were not on the tower frequency at that time so we didn't know why. We were cleared for takeoff; and as we taxied onto the runway were given winds 120 degrees at 13 KTS. I told tower it would take me a min to calculate the tailwind so they told me to clear the runway by crossing and holding in the runway 9R pad; then call when ready. After we parked we worked out the wind to be a 160 degree tailwind and at 13 KTS that equated to a 12 KT tailwind. While we were doing our calculations; tower cleared an air carrier #1 and air carrier #2 flight for takeoff; same winds; which they both accepted and they both took off. We told tower we weren't legal and they taxied us to runway 9L; and I noticed several other planes following us from runway 32L after we switched to ground frequency. My concern is that this was a huge gotcha which we avoided. The wind given just at takeoff was significantly stronger and from a more tailwind position than any other information up to that point. Another plane before us apparently figured this out and changed runways. Tower did not get the hint. I took time to figure out the actual tailwind; determined we weren't legal; and apparently tower was clearing other jets for takeoff with an illegal tailwind. I know other operators may have different limits; but I suspect not in this case. It is much easier for a tower controller to have someone figure out the tailwind component; than it is for an aircrew; last second; in the cockpit just prior to takeoff.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: MD80 CAPTAIN REPORTS BEING CLEARED FOR TKOF AT ORD WITH WINDS EXCEEDING TAIL WIND LIMITS.
Narrative: DURING TAXI TO RWY 32L INTXN T10 TKOF; WE WERE ADVISED BY GND AND ATIS THAT WIND WAS APPROX 080 DEGS AT 8 KTS. A SLIGHT TAILWIND; SO WE SET UP FOR MAX PWR TKOF AND CALCULATED WHAT THE FULL 10 KT TAILWIND WT PENALTY WAS; WHICH WE WERE LEGAL FOR; IF NECESSARY. APCHING THE RWY; WE NOTED ANOTHER ACFT PULL OFF RWY 32L AND HEAD TOWARDS RWY 9L. WE WERE NOT ON THE TWR FREQ AT THAT TIME SO WE DIDN'T KNOW WHY. WE WERE CLRED FOR TKOF; AND AS WE TAXIED ONTO THE RWY WERE GIVEN WINDS 120 DEGS AT 13 KTS. I TOLD TWR IT WOULD TAKE ME A MIN TO CALCULATE THE TAILWIND SO THEY TOLD ME TO CLR THE RWY BY XING AND HOLDING IN THE RWY 9R PAD; THEN CALL WHEN READY. AFTER WE PARKED WE WORKED OUT THE WIND TO BE A 160 DEG TAILWIND AND AT 13 KTS THAT EQUATED TO A 12 KT TAILWIND. WHILE WE WERE DOING OUR CALCULATIONS; TWR CLRED AN ACR #1 AND ACR #2 FLT FOR TKOF; SAME WINDS; WHICH THEY BOTH ACCEPTED AND THEY BOTH TOOK OFF. WE TOLD TWR WE WEREN'T LEGAL AND THEY TAXIED US TO RWY 9L; AND I NOTICED SEVERAL OTHER PLANES FOLLOWING US FROM RWY 32L AFTER WE SWITCHED TO GND FREQ. MY CONCERN IS THAT THIS WAS A HUGE GOTCHA WHICH WE AVOIDED. THE WIND GIVEN JUST AT TKOF WAS SIGNIFICANTLY STRONGER AND FROM A MORE TAILWIND POS THAN ANY OTHER INFO UP TO THAT POINT. ANOTHER PLANE BEFORE US APPARENTLY FIGURED THIS OUT AND CHANGED RWYS. TWR DID NOT GET THE HINT. I TOOK TIME TO FIGURE OUT THE ACTUAL TAILWIND; DETERMINED WE WEREN'T LEGAL; AND APPARENTLY TWR WAS CLRING OTHER JETS FOR TKOF WITH AN ILLEGAL TAILWIND. I KNOW OTHER OPERATORS MAY HAVE DIFFERENT LIMITS; BUT I SUSPECT NOT IN THIS CASE. IT IS MUCH EASIER FOR A TWR CTLR TO HAVE SOMEONE FIGURE OUT THE TAILWIND COMPONENT; THAN IT IS FOR AN AIRCREW; LAST SECOND; IN THE COCKPIT JUST PRIOR TO TKOF.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of January 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.