37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
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Attributes | |
ACN | 812823 |
Time | |
Date | 200811 |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : teb.airport |
State Reference | NJ |
Altitude | msl single value : 3800 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : n90.tracon |
Operator | general aviation : corporate |
Make Model Name | Citation Excel |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 91 |
Flight Phase | climbout : initial climbout : vacating altitude |
Route In Use | departure sid : teb 5 |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : corporate |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : commercial pilot : multi engine pilot : instrument |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 50 flight time total : 4500 flight time type : 200 |
ASRS Report | 812823 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : corporate |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : cfi pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 45 flight time total : 8700 flight time type : 400 |
ASRS Report | 812250 |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : excursion from assigned altitude non adherence : clearance |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Narrative:
While on the teb 5 departure the PF left 3000 ft and was climbing thru 3700 ft or so when I stopped him. I was completing checklist items and configuring the FMS for the instruction last given by ATC. I stopped the pilot form climbing further because I was not sure if ATC gave us a higher altitude from 3000 ft. I have not changed the altitude in the select box etc. At that time I called ATC on the radio to confirm a climb. He gave us a climb to 6000 ft; but I was not sure if he originally gave us the climb. Therefore we possibly violated an altitude. The lesson learned is to never leave an altitude until both pilots are sure it was given.supplemental information from acn 812250: flight was on an IFR flight plan with a clearance for the teb 5 departure. I was PIC and PF; in the left seat. We departed without incident; flying the altitudes and heading as prescribed; staying below 200 KIAS as we were below the class B airspace. We were on assigned heading of 280 at an altitude of 2000 ft MSL. We were given a turn to a heading of 240 degrees; climb to 3000 ft; which the PNF acknowledged; and set in the alerter; which I acknowledged with him (our SOP). Immediately following that we were given a turn to 210 degrees; intercept the col 170R and fly inbound; and a climb to 5000 ft. I started the turn just as soon as the controller issued it (not waiting for the end of the radio call) the PNF was busy trying to set up the FMS to intercept the appropriate radial; and I started a climb. I also heard him acknowledge ATC (though it didn't register exactly what he was saying). Climbing through 3500 ft; I noticed the altitude alerter still set at 3000 ft. I told the PNF (who was busy with the FMS) that the alerter needed to be changed to the new altitude... To which he replied that he didn't hear any new altitude. I immediately stopped the climb (at 3800 ft) and asked him to verify with ATC; as I then questioned whether I had heard the call correctly myself. He tried to query ATC (which was busy with other radio calls) and couldn't get through. Unsolicited; ATC then called and issued a climb to 6000 ft. ATC seemed unperturbed; and I got the impression that they had seen us stop the climb at about 3700 ft; and wanted us to get on up. We did not ask ATC if we had climbed prematurely or not. ATC acted 'business as usual;' there were no TCAS targets in the immediate area that would have been a threat at either 3000 ft or 5000 ft (to our eye); but we of course didn't have the big picture) and the controller didn't chastise; question or challenge us. All of this took much longer to describe than the actual event beginning to end. From the climb out of 2000 ft to the ATC call of 'climb to 6000 ft' was no more than 30-40 seconds. And of course; ATC was very busy; the radio frequency was (and usually is up there at any time of day or night) congested. We are still uncertain if we climbed prematurely or not. Even if we didn't; we leveled off (albeit for a short period of time) prior to reaching our assigned altitude. Factors involved: we had arrived that morning in teb at XA00; and here we were departing 12 hours later; so we weren't the sharpest tacks in the box. We were rushing a bit... In that airspace controllers want to see that you are complying with instructions immediately (subjective opinion!). I should have used the autoplt; which would have slowed down the pace a bit and allowed both of us to be involved with what we were doing. By hand flying; I had to use some brain power in guiding the aircraft; and that late at night; after a long day; brain power was in short supply. PNF was 'heads down' engrossed in programming what was going to be a fairly quick turn; and I allowed myself to be caught up in manipulating controls instead of managing the big picture and letting the airplane do the grunt work. I think that would have allowed us as a crew to 'stay connected.'
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: A CE560XL FLT CREW CLBED ABOVE 3000 FT DEPARTING TEB AND THE CAPT THINKS IT MAY HAVE BEEN CONTRARY TO THEIR CLRNC.
Narrative: WHILE ON THE TEB 5 DEP THE PF LEFT 3000 FT AND WAS CLBING THRU 3700 FT OR SO WHEN I STOPPED HIM. I WAS COMPLETING CHKLIST ITEMS AND CONFIGURING THE FMS FOR THE INSTRUCTION LAST GIVEN BY ATC. I STOPPED THE PLT FORM CLBING FURTHER BECAUSE I WAS NOT SURE IF ATC GAVE US A HIGHER ALT FROM 3000 FT. I HAVE NOT CHANGED THE ALT IN THE SELECT BOX ETC. AT THAT TIME I CALLED ATC ON THE RADIO TO CONFIRM A CLB. HE GAVE US A CLB TO 6000 FT; BUT I WAS NOT SURE IF HE ORIGINALLY GAVE US THE CLB. THEREFORE WE POSSIBLY VIOLATED AN ALT. THE LESSON LEARNED IS TO NEVER LEAVE AN ALT UNTIL BOTH PLTS ARE SURE IT WAS GIVEN.SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 812250: FLT WAS ON AN IFR FLT PLAN WITH A CLRNC FOR THE TEB 5 DEP. I WAS PIC AND PF; IN THE L SEAT. WE DEPARTED WITHOUT INCIDENT; FLYING THE ALTITUDES AND HDG AS PRESCRIBED; STAYING BELOW 200 KIAS AS WE WERE BELOW THE CLASS B AIRSPACE. WE WERE ON ASSIGNED HDG OF 280 AT AN ALTITUDE OF 2000 FT MSL. WE WERE GIVEN A TURN TO A HDG OF 240 DEGS; CLB TO 3000 FT; WHICH THE PNF ACKNOWLEDGED; AND SET IN THE ALERTER; WHICH I ACKNOWLEDGED WITH HIM (OUR SOP). IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THAT WE WERE GIVEN A TURN TO 210 DEGS; INTERCEPT THE COL 170R AND FLY INBOUND; AND A CLB TO 5000 FT. I STARTED THE TURN JUST AS SOON AS THE CTLR ISSUED IT (NOT WAITING FOR THE END OF THE RADIO CALL) THE PNF WAS BUSY TRYING TO SET UP THE FMS TO INTERCEPT THE APPROPRIATE RADIAL; AND I STARTED A CLB. I ALSO HEARD HIM ACKNOWLEDGE ATC (THOUGH IT DIDN'T REGISTER EXACTLY WHAT HE WAS SAYING). CLBING THROUGH 3500 FT; I NOTICED THE ALTITUDE ALERTER STILL SET AT 3000 FT. I TOLD THE PNF (WHO WAS BUSY WITH THE FMS) THAT THE ALERTER NEEDED TO BE CHANGED TO THE NEW ALTITUDE... TO WHICH HE REPLIED THAT HE DIDN'T HEAR ANY NEW ALTITUDE. I IMMEDIATELY STOPPED THE CLB (AT 3800 FT) AND ASKED HIM TO VERIFY WITH ATC; AS I THEN QUESTIONED WHETHER I HAD HEARD THE CALL CORRECTLY MYSELF. HE TRIED TO QUERY ATC (WHICH WAS BUSY WITH OTHER RADIO CALLS) AND COULDN'T GET THROUGH. UNSOLICITED; ATC THEN CALLED AND ISSUED A CLB TO 6000 FT. ATC SEEMED UNPERTURBED; AND I GOT THE IMPRESSION THAT THEY HAD SEEN US STOP THE CLB AT ABOUT 3700 FT; AND WANTED US TO GET ON UP. WE DID NOT ASK ATC IF WE HAD CLBED PREMATURELY OR NOT. ATC ACTED 'BUSINESS AS USUAL;' THERE WERE NO TCAS TARGETS IN THE IMMEDIATE AREA THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A THREAT AT EITHER 3000 FT OR 5000 FT (TO OUR EYE); BUT WE OF COURSE DIDN'T HAVE THE BIG PICTURE) AND THE CTLR DIDN'T CHASTISE; QUESTION OR CHALLENGE US. ALL OF THIS TOOK MUCH LONGER TO DESCRIBE THAN THE ACTUAL EVENT BEGINNING TO END. FROM THE CLB OUT OF 2000 FT TO THE ATC CALL OF 'CLB TO 6000 FT' WAS NO MORE THAN 30-40 SECONDS. AND OF COURSE; ATC WAS VERY BUSY; THE RADIO FREQUENCY WAS (AND USUALLY IS UP THERE AT ANY TIME OF DAY OR NIGHT) CONGESTED. WE ARE STILL UNCERTAIN IF WE CLBED PREMATURELY OR NOT. EVEN IF WE DIDN'T; WE LEVELED OFF (ALBEIT FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME) PRIOR TO REACHING OUR ASSIGNED ALTITUDE. FACTORS INVOLVED: WE HAD ARRIVED THAT MORNING IN TEB AT XA00; AND HERE WE WERE DEPARTING 12 HOURS LATER; SO WE WEREN'T THE SHARPEST TACKS IN THE BOX. WE WERE RUSHING A BIT... IN THAT AIRSPACE CTLRS WANT TO SEE THAT YOU ARE COMPLYING WITH INSTRUCTIONS IMMEDIATELY (SUBJECTIVE OPINION!). I SHOULD HAVE USED THE AUTOPLT; WHICH WOULD HAVE SLOWED DOWN THE PACE A BIT AND ALLOWED BOTH OF US TO BE INVOLVED WITH WHAT WE WERE DOING. BY HAND FLYING; I HAD TO USE SOME BRAIN POWER IN GUIDING THE ACFT; AND THAT LATE AT NIGHT; AFTER A LONG DAY; BRAIN POWER WAS IN SHORT SUPPLY. PNF WAS 'HEADS DOWN' ENGROSSED IN PROGRAMMING WHAT WAS GOING TO BE A FAIRLY QUICK TURN; AND I ALLOWED MYSELF TO BE CAUGHT UP IN MANIPULATING CTLS INSTEAD OF MANAGING THE BIG PICTURE AND LETTING THE AIRPLANE DO THE GRUNT WORK. I THINK THAT WOULD HAVE ALLOWED US AS A CREW TO 'STAY CONNECTED.'
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of May 2009 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.