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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 87635 |
Time | |
Date | 198805 |
Day | Thu |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : den |
State Reference | CO |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 24000 msl bound upper : 25000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | IMC |
Light | Dusk |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | artcc : zdv |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
Navigation In Use | Other |
Flight Phase | cruise other descent other |
Route In Use | enroute airway : zdv |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 240 flight time total : 7300 flight time type : 1300 |
ASRS Report | 87635 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 225 flight time total : 12575 flight time type : 1764 |
ASRS Report | 87573 |
Events | |
Anomaly | other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other controllera |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance |
Consequence | Other |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | other |
Narrative:
Checked in with denver center just west of hayden VOR and who acknowledged. Denver center had traffic holding at goull intersection located on J56. We inquired about the holding traffic altitude and were advised he was at FL370. That was the last transmission we heard from denver center until we requested a lower altitude approximately 47 DME from den VOR on the 313 radial. During our flight between goull intersection and the 47 DME from den we heard den center issuing holding clrncs and other routing to other aircraft and their acknowledging the clrncs and routings. We were never given any holding or alternate routing throughout the flight. Our routing was slc J56 den. Upon turning to join J56 we in the cockpit discussed whether the center had forgotten about us or not. Several aircraft were speaking on the frequency at that time and we finally were able to contact the center and requested a lower altitude approximately 47 DME from den VOR on the 313 degree radial. The response from denver center was 'approach just shut us down turn right to 300 degree and descend and maintain 24000''. We complied. The center also advised 'we're turning you back to the holding pattern at benam intersection and your efc is XX51Z'. We were then instructed to contact another denver center frequency and he advised us 'hold your outbnd heading and we'll be turning you back to the 313 degree radial shortly'. We were soon turned inbound and completed the flight without any further problems. Our initial speed was 300 KTS and as soon as we were turned to the 300 degree heading, we slowed to 230 KTS, which would have been our holding speed for our weight and altitude. We were never asked to call anyone. I.e., center, approach on the phone and we never heard any altitude alarms go off during any of the center's xmissions. I believe this is a case of a very busy time period for the center and somehow we were overlooked. Our day started at XA00 PDT local with the checkin at the airport and we transmitted denver 2 times and this was our final flight to denver and for the day. Actual flying for the day was 8:54. The day was very strenuous because the WX was bad in denver all day, i.e., ceiling 300-1300' and visibility 3-7 mi with rain and fog. Additionally we had 1 pack inoperative and had to fly at 24000 and 25000' all day. This put us in IMC conditions and turbulence most of the day. We felt since no clearance was received, perhaps we were in front of the pack and would not have to hold. A solution to this would be for the cockpit crew to check with center at an earlier time to see if they were to hold or be otherwise routed if instructions were not received. Also, perhaps some type of checking system could be developed for controllers to be sure all aircraft had received proper holding or rerouting instructions.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: MLG CONTINUED INBOUND AS CLEARED EVEN THOUGH OTHER ACFT WERE HOLDING AT OUTER FIX. ATC RECLEARED THEM TO OUTER FIX AND LATER TOOK THEM NUMBER ONE. FLT CREW THOUGHT THEY MAY HAVE ERRED.
Narrative: CHECKED IN WITH DENVER CENTER JUST W OF HAYDEN VOR AND WHO ACKNOWLEDGED. DENVER CENTER HAD TFC HOLDING AT GOULL INTXN LOCATED ON J56. WE INQUIRED ABOUT THE HOLDING TFC ALT AND WERE ADVISED HE WAS AT FL370. THAT WAS THE LAST XMISSION WE HEARD FROM DENVER CENTER UNTIL WE REQUESTED A LOWER ALT APPROX 47 DME FROM DEN VOR ON THE 313 RADIAL. DURING OUR FLT BETWEEN GOULL INTXN AND THE 47 DME FROM DEN WE HEARD DEN CENTER ISSUING HOLDING CLRNCS AND OTHER ROUTING TO OTHER ACFT AND THEIR ACKNOWLEDGING THE CLRNCS AND ROUTINGS. WE WERE NEVER GIVEN ANY HOLDING OR ALTERNATE ROUTING THROUGHOUT THE FLT. OUR ROUTING WAS SLC J56 DEN. UPON TURNING TO JOIN J56 WE IN THE COCKPIT DISCUSSED WHETHER THE CENTER HAD FORGOTTEN ABOUT US OR NOT. SEVERAL ACFT WERE SPEAKING ON THE FREQ AT THAT TIME AND WE FINALLY WERE ABLE TO CONTACT THE CENTER AND REQUESTED A LOWER ALT APPROX 47 DME FROM DEN VOR ON THE 313 DEG RADIAL. THE RESPONSE FROM DENVER CENTER WAS 'APCH JUST SHUT US DOWN TURN RIGHT TO 300 DEG AND DSND AND MAINTAIN 24000''. WE COMPLIED. THE CENTER ALSO ADVISED 'WE'RE TURNING YOU BACK TO THE HOLDING PATTERN AT BENAM INTXN AND YOUR EFC IS XX51Z'. WE WERE THEN INSTRUCTED TO CONTACT ANOTHER DENVER CENTER FREQ AND HE ADVISED US 'HOLD YOUR OUTBND HDG AND WE'LL BE TURNING YOU BACK TO THE 313 DEG RADIAL SHORTLY'. WE WERE SOON TURNED INBND AND COMPLETED THE FLT WITHOUT ANY FURTHER PROBLEMS. OUR INITIAL SPEED WAS 300 KTS AND AS SOON AS WE WERE TURNED TO THE 300 DEG HDG, WE SLOWED TO 230 KTS, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN OUR HOLDING SPEED FOR OUR WEIGHT AND ALT. WE WERE NEVER ASKED TO CALL ANYONE. I.E., CENTER, APCH ON THE PHONE AND WE NEVER HEARD ANY ALT ALARMS GO OFF DURING ANY OF THE CENTER'S XMISSIONS. I BELIEVE THIS IS A CASE OF A VERY BUSY TIME PERIOD FOR THE CENTER AND SOMEHOW WE WERE OVERLOOKED. OUR DAY STARTED AT XA00 PDT LOCAL WITH THE CHECKIN AT THE ARPT AND WE XMITTED DENVER 2 TIMES AND THIS WAS OUR FINAL FLT TO DENVER AND FOR THE DAY. ACTUAL FLYING FOR THE DAY WAS 8:54. THE DAY WAS VERY STRENUOUS BECAUSE THE WX WAS BAD IN DENVER ALL DAY, I.E., CEILING 300-1300' AND VISIBILITY 3-7 MI WITH RAIN AND FOG. ADDITIONALLY WE HAD 1 PACK INOPERATIVE AND HAD TO FLY AT 24000 AND 25000' ALL DAY. THIS PUT US IN IMC CONDITIONS AND TURB MOST OF THE DAY. WE FELT SINCE NO CLRNC WAS RECEIVED, PERHAPS WE WERE IN FRONT OF THE PACK AND WOULD NOT HAVE TO HOLD. A SOLUTION TO THIS WOULD BE FOR THE COCKPIT CREW TO CHECK WITH CENTER AT AN EARLIER TIME TO SEE IF THEY WERE TO HOLD OR BE OTHERWISE ROUTED IF INSTRUCTIONS WERE NOT RECEIVED. ALSO, PERHAPS SOME TYPE OF CHECKING SYSTEM COULD BE DEVELOPED FOR CTLRS TO BE SURE ALL ACFT HAD RECEIVED PROPER HOLDING OR REROUTING INSTRUCTIONS.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.