Narrative:

Flight originated at pvf to ful with a lunch stop at ptv. The 3 persons aboard were the aircraft owners (husband and wife) and a friend, all with current private pilot certificates. This report is about incidents that occurred in the la basin, where visibility was reported as 4 mi in haze and fog on 2/sat/89, and 6 mi in haze on 2/mon/89. The aircraft is single engine, 4 passenger, equipped appropriately with navigation/communication VOR and mode C transponder. Prior to entering the bur arsa from the north, the male pilot made 3 attempts to contact approach control. Because the radios had been working west/O problems throughout the trip and approach was not extremely busy, the female pilot in the right passenger seat attempted a fourth contact, hoping a female voice would attract attention. This worked well with an immediate response from approach and no radio problems reported from the controller. To help ease the workload for the PIC in our first flight into this intimidating, unfamiliar high traffic area, the female copilot continued the radio contact with approach control. After passing through the bur arsa, approach authority/authorized frequency change and transponder code of 1200 and suggested contacting ont (?0 approach on a specific frequency. When the approach controller was contacted on the specified frequency we gave our destination, our estimated position and a 'request for vectors to ful--we are totally unfamiliar with the area.' the controllers response was, 'you are not in my airspace,' and suggested contacting coast approach and gave us a specific frequency. This contact with coast approach was made, repeating our 'request for vectors to ful--we are totally unfamiliar with the area.' once again the controller's response was, 'you are not in my airspace,' and to try coast (?) approach on yet a third frequency. The female copilot was unable to generate a response from controllers on this third frequency. During this time, all aboard were keeping an eye out for other aircraft and were also using a sectional chart or terminal chart to help locate ful and/or our position in relation to it. The many large roads and freeways looked alike and by the time we were able to identify a landmark, we wereover a large airport--lgb. Making a 180 degree turn, we made an attempt to find ful heading northeast, but realized that we again had passed the airport when we were over some green-brown hills west/O houses or bldgs. Making another 180 degree turn and heading southwest, we were able to identify freeways that we had been over before and started identing every possible landmark shown on the terminal chart until we did locate ful on our third attempt. During this very stressful time period when approach controller would not assist and in low visibility, every effort was made to maintain proper altitudes and headings, but it is possible that our aircraft intruded unauthorized into the following airspace: la TCA, lgb air traffic area, ful air traffic area, and maybe others. We made effort to use the navigation equipment available (VOR, NDB), but the stressful situation and unfamiliarity with the area resulted in inefficient use of the equipment. These possible intrusions could have been fully avoided had the ATC controllers been willing to assist us with our request for vectors. As further evidence to the controller's unwillingness to be of assistance, on our return trip 2 days later, we experienced a very similar situation. This time, female copilot was PIC and operating the radios herself. After departing ful, the tower suggested contacting ont approach on a specific frequency. When contacted, the controller repeated the response of 2 days earlier, 'you are not in my airspace,' with a suggestion of coast approach had another frequency. Reaching a point of thorough frustration, the pilot responded to the controller: 'I'm tired of this. This has happened the entire trip. We are totally unfamiliar with the area and no one has been willing to talk to us! Ful tower gave me this frequency to contact.' the controller's response was then one of helpfulness with a transponder code and an offer to find the appropriate frequency. However, frequency change was not made until handoff to bur arsa. Although new to the la basin, both pilots involved in these situations have over 200 hours flying experience and have talked to controllers in other arsa's and TCA's (las, sfo, oak,edw, merced, fresno, travis AFB, sacramento and others). Although the controllers in the la basin are generally the busiest, on either day they were no busier than others we have spoken to. Additionally, the la basin controllers did not state that they could not handle us due to traffic load. Their response was, 'you are not in my airspace.' but we had to be in the appropriate airspace for one of the controllers. Additionally, controllers did not report trouble understanding our radio xmissions. Our opinion that the controllers just didn't want to be bothered with us was reinforced by the initial response on the return trip out of ful. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following: reporter states they remained below floor of the TCA at all times. Probably did get into lgb air traffic area and possibly ful as well. Assistance from ATC instead of the run around would have avoided the entire problem. It was so simple when they finally did their job! Said his wife was really angry and the message must have gotten through.

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Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: POSSIBLE PENETRATION OF ATA WITHOUT CONTACT.

Narrative: FLT ORIGINATED AT PVF TO FUL WITH A LUNCH STOP AT PTV. THE 3 PERSONS ABOARD WERE THE ACFT OWNERS (HUSBAND AND WIFE) AND A FRIEND, ALL WITH CURRENT PVT PLT CERTIFICATES. THIS RPT IS ABOUT INCIDENTS THAT OCCURRED IN THE LA BASIN, WHERE VISIBILITY WAS RPTED AS 4 MI IN HAZE AND FOG ON 2/SAT/89, AND 6 MI IN HAZE ON 2/MON/89. THE ACFT IS SINGLE ENG, 4 PAX, EQUIPPED APPROPRIATELY WITH NAV/COM VOR AND MODE C XPONDER. PRIOR TO ENTERING THE BUR ARSA FROM THE N, THE MALE PLT MADE 3 ATTEMPTS TO CONTACT APCH CTL. BECAUSE THE RADIOS HAD BEEN WORKING W/O PROBS THROUGHOUT THE TRIP AND APCH WAS NOT EXTREMELY BUSY, THE FEMALE PLT IN THE RIGHT PAX SEAT ATTEMPTED A FOURTH CONTACT, HOPING A FEMALE VOICE WOULD ATTRACT ATTN. THIS WORKED WELL WITH AN IMMEDIATE RESPONSE FROM APCH AND NO RADIO PROBS RPTED FROM THE CTLR. TO HELP EASE THE WORKLOAD FOR THE PIC IN OUR FIRST FLT INTO THIS INTIMIDATING, UNFAMILIAR HIGH TFC AREA, THE FEMALE COPLT CONTINUED THE RADIO CONTACT WITH APCH CTL. AFTER PASSING THROUGH THE BUR ARSA, APCH AUTH FREQ CHANGE AND XPONDER CODE OF 1200 AND SUGGESTED CONTACTING ONT (?0 APCH ON A SPECIFIC FREQ. WHEN THE APCH CTLR WAS CONTACTED ON THE SPECIFIED FREQ WE GAVE OUR DEST, OUR ESTIMATED POS AND A 'REQUEST FOR VECTORS TO FUL--WE ARE TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR WITH THE AREA.' THE CTLRS RESPONSE WAS, 'YOU ARE NOT IN MY AIRSPACE,' AND SUGGESTED CONTACTING COAST APCH AND GAVE US A SPECIFIC FREQ. THIS CONTACT WITH COAST APCH WAS MADE, REPEATING OUR 'REQUEST FOR VECTORS TO FUL--WE ARE TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR WITH THE AREA.' ONCE AGAIN THE CTLR'S RESPONSE WAS, 'YOU ARE NOT IN MY AIRSPACE,' AND TO TRY COAST (?) APCH ON YET A THIRD FREQ. THE FEMALE COPLT WAS UNABLE TO GENERATE A RESPONSE FROM CTLRS ON THIS THIRD FREQ. DURING THIS TIME, ALL ABOARD WERE KEEPING AN EYE OUT FOR OTHER ACFT AND WERE ALSO USING A SECTIONAL CHART OR TERMINAL CHART TO HELP LOCATE FUL AND/OR OUR POS IN RELATION TO IT. THE MANY LARGE ROADS AND FREEWAYS LOOKED ALIKE AND BY THE TIME WE WERE ABLE TO IDENT A LANDMARK, WE WEREOVER A LARGE ARPT--LGB. MAKING A 180 DEG TURN, WE MADE AN ATTEMPT TO FIND FUL HDG NE, BUT REALIZED THAT WE AGAIN HAD PASSED THE ARPT WHEN WE WERE OVER SOME GREEN-BROWN HILLS W/O HOUSES OR BLDGS. MAKING ANOTHER 180 DEG TURN AND HDG SW, WE WERE ABLE TO IDENT FREEWAYS THAT WE HAD BEEN OVER BEFORE AND STARTED IDENTING EVERY POSSIBLE LANDMARK SHOWN ON THE TERMINAL CHART UNTIL WE DID LOCATE FUL ON OUR THIRD ATTEMPT. DURING THIS VERY STRESSFUL TIME PERIOD WHEN APCH CTLR WOULD NOT ASSIST AND IN LOW VISIBILITY, EVERY EFFORT WAS MADE TO MAINTAIN PROPER ALTS AND HDGS, BUT IT IS POSSIBLE THAT OUR ACFT INTRUDED UNAUTH INTO THE FOLLOWING AIRSPACE: LA TCA, LGB ATA, FUL ATA, AND MAYBE OTHERS. WE MADE EFFORT TO USE THE NAV EQUIP AVAILABLE (VOR, NDB), BUT THE STRESSFUL SITUATION AND UNFAMILIARITY WITH THE AREA RESULTED IN INEFFICIENT USE OF THE EQUIP. THESE POSSIBLE INTRUSIONS COULD HAVE BEEN FULLY AVOIDED HAD THE ATC CTLRS BEEN WILLING TO ASSIST US WITH OUR REQUEST FOR VECTORS. AS FURTHER EVIDENCE TO THE CTLR'S UNWILLINGNESS TO BE OF ASSISTANCE, ON OUR RETURN TRIP 2 DAYS LATER, WE EXPERIENCED A VERY SIMILAR SITUATION. THIS TIME, FEMALE COPLT WAS PIC AND OPERATING THE RADIOS HERSELF. AFTER DEPARTING FUL, THE TWR SUGGESTED CONTACTING ONT APCH ON A SPECIFIC FREQ. WHEN CONTACTED, THE CTLR REPEATED THE RESPONSE OF 2 DAYS EARLIER, 'YOU ARE NOT IN MY AIRSPACE,' WITH A SUGGESTION OF COAST APCH HAD ANOTHER FREQ. REACHING A POINT OF THOROUGH FRUSTRATION, THE PLT RESPONDED TO THE CTLR: 'I'M TIRED OF THIS. THIS HAS HAPPENED THE ENTIRE TRIP. WE ARE TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR WITH THE AREA AND NO ONE HAS BEEN WILLING TO TALK TO US! FUL TWR GAVE ME THIS FREQ TO CONTACT.' THE CTLR'S RESPONSE WAS THEN ONE OF HELPFULNESS WITH A XPONDER CODE AND AN OFFER TO FIND THE APPROPRIATE FREQ. HOWEVER, FREQ CHANGE WAS NOT MADE UNTIL HDOF TO BUR ARSA. ALTHOUGH NEW TO THE LA BASIN, BOTH PLTS INVOLVED IN THESE SITUATIONS HAVE OVER 200 HRS FLYING EXPERIENCE AND HAVE TALKED TO CTLRS IN OTHER ARSA'S AND TCA'S (LAS, SFO, OAK,EDW, MERCED, FRESNO, TRAVIS AFB, SACRAMENTO AND OTHERS). ALTHOUGH THE CTLRS IN THE LA BASIN ARE GENERALLY THE BUSIEST, ON EITHER DAY THEY WERE NO BUSIER THAN OTHERS WE HAVE SPOKEN TO. ADDITIONALLY, THE LA BASIN CTLRS DID NOT STATE THAT THEY COULD NOT HANDLE US DUE TO TFC LOAD. THEIR RESPONSE WAS, 'YOU ARE NOT IN MY AIRSPACE.' BUT WE HAD TO BE IN THE APPROPRIATE AIRSPACE FOR ONE OF THE CTLRS. ADDITIONALLY, CTLRS DID NOT RPT TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING OUR RADIO XMISSIONS. OUR OPINION THAT THE CTLRS JUST DIDN'T WANT TO BE BOTHERED WITH US WAS REINFORCED BY THE INITIAL RESPONSE ON THE RETURN TRIP OUT OF FUL. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING: RPTR STATES THEY REMAINED BELOW FLOOR OF THE TCA AT ALL TIMES. PROBABLY DID GET INTO LGB ATA AND POSSIBLY FUL AS WELL. ASSISTANCE FROM ATC INSTEAD OF THE RUN AROUND WOULD HAVE AVOIDED THE ENTIRE PROB. IT WAS SO SIMPLE WHEN THEY FINALLY DID THEIR JOB! SAID HIS WIFE WAS REALLY ANGRY AND THE MESSAGE MUST HAVE GOTTEN THROUGH.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.