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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 1222731 |
Time | |
Date | 201412 |
Local Time Of Day | 1201-1800 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | SCT.TRACON |
State Reference | CA |
Aircraft 1 | |
Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 91 |
Flight Phase | Cruise |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Function | First Officer Pilot Not Flying |
Qualification | Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP) |
Person 2 | |
Function | Captain Pilot Flying |
Qualification | Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP) |
Events | |
Anomaly | ATC Issue All Types Deviation - Procedural Clearance Deviation - Procedural Published Material / Policy |
Narrative:
Prior to flying an unpressurized ferry flight to phx today; we reviewed all pertinent procedures pertaining to our flight. We were restricted to a lower altitude as we were unpressurized and originally were filed for 9000 ft. As the copilot; I looked at our MEA's along our route of flight and determined that we would need higher; and eventually we coordinated that change with dispatch; who had filed us along a route of flight that brought us down way south so we could cross over the mountains to phoenix on airways with lower MEA's due to our MEL restrictions.we spoke with the chief pilot and maintenance control about operating the aircraft at 11;000 ft which is legal per far part 91. We acknowledged that we could have gone higher but decided to stick with our final altitude of 11;000 which was coordinated through our chiefs and dispatch. Our pre departure clearance showed us re-routed so we contacted clearance and asked them to remain on our filed route; which they cleared us for. Our flight departed normally outside of the fact we were depressurized. Upon reaching our cruise altitude of 11;000 ft; center informed us of a re-route and we requested to remain on our present route due to our original planning and higher mora's to the east. When we reached socal approach; they attempted to re-route us again and we once again requested to remain on our filed route; explaining that for operational reasons we needed to stay as filed. Our controller got very angry with us and said we needed to accept vectors as we were reaching filmore VOR. He said to expect vectors to either palmdale VOR or ponoma VOR. We replied that we were unable. The mora's out that way were too high for us down the road; though he was very certain that they weren't. The controller got very upset and told us that we were interrupting flights out of lax and advised us that we had company traffic ahead of us restricted to lower as a result of our current route of flight; once again emphasizing how very upset he was with us.he switched us off and once again they tried to re-route us. In total it must have been 10 times; and each time we responded that we had to stay on our present route due to terrain in the area. This new controller gave us vectors and then re-joined us to the airway we were on; also giving us a descent to 7000 ft. He then gave us a phone number and said to contact them as soon as possible. After socal finally switched us over to center; we were climbed back up to 11000 ft and the flight proceeded normally. Upon landing and after a post flight inspection; we called [flight ops] and explained our situation. We then called the phone number given to us by socal and spoke with an ATC supervisor who advised us that we were not being recorded and this was not being submitted to the FAA.he reprimanded us for not coordinating with them prior to departing and for not trusting the controller's years of experience as a socal controller. I mentioned to him that his controller may know the airspace very well; but we did not and were relying on what our low-altitude enroute charts said. I also mentioned that we were more worried about airspace farther to the east where the mora's were in the range of 12;900 ft and higher; well outside of socal's airspace. We agreed that prior coordination would have made this a non-issue and I held my tongue concerning that controller's less than friendly tone with us. We were trying to be as safe and conservative as possible and ended up getting into the way of a few arrivals/departures into lax. I understand their frustration but am certain [the captain] made the right call. I support and agree with his judgment on the matter.prior to doing any abnormal routes or having any restrictions for our flights; we need to coordinate that with all ATC facilities along our route. Clearly socal had no idea why we needed to stay down low and remain on our current flight. We should be working together as a team; and need to change the mentality of 'us vs. Them' with respect to controllers and pilots. Also; I would argue that we should never have received our original clearance out of ZZZ if it meant causing such an issue with socal down the road. Hope this helps and sorry for any inconvenience we may have caused today.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: Pilots report of a ferry flight to PHX that had a route that was non-standard and low; which caused confusion further down the route.
Narrative: Prior to flying an unpressurized ferry flight to PHX today; we reviewed all pertinent procedures pertaining to our flight. We were restricted to a lower altitude as we were unpressurized and originally were filed for 9000 ft. As the copilot; I looked at our MEA's along our route of flight and determined that we would need higher; and eventually we coordinated that change with dispatch; who had filed us along a route of flight that brought us down way south so we could cross over the mountains to Phoenix on airways with lower MEA's due to our MEL restrictions.We spoke with the chief pilot and maintenance control about operating the aircraft at 11;000 ft which is legal per FAR part 91. We acknowledged that we could have gone higher but decided to stick with our final altitude of 11;000 which was coordinated through our chiefs and dispatch. Our PDC showed us re-routed so we contacted clearance and asked them to remain on our filed route; which they cleared us for. Our flight departed normally outside of the fact we were depressurized. Upon reaching our cruise altitude of 11;000 ft; center informed us of a re-route and we requested to remain on our present route due to our original planning and higher MORA's to the east. When we reached SoCal approach; they attempted to re-route us again and we once again requested to remain on our filed route; explaining that for operational reasons we needed to stay as filed. Our controller got very angry with us and said we needed to accept vectors as we were reaching Filmore VOR. He said to expect vectors to either Palmdale VOR or Ponoma VOR. We replied that we were unable. The MORA's out that way were too high for us down the road; though he was very certain that they weren't. The controller got very upset and told us that we were interrupting flights out of LAX and advised us that we had company traffic ahead of us restricted to lower as a result of our current route of flight; once again emphasizing how very upset he was with us.He switched us off and once again they tried to re-route us. In total it must have been 10 times; and each time we responded that we had to stay on our present route due to terrain in the area. This new controller gave us vectors and then re-joined us to the airway we were on; also giving us a descent to 7000 ft. He then gave us a phone number and said to contact them ASAP. After SoCal finally switched us over to center; we were climbed back up to 11000 ft and the flight proceeded normally. Upon landing and after a post flight inspection; we called [flight ops] and explained our situation. We then called the phone number given to us by SoCal and spoke with an ATC supervisor who advised us that we were not being recorded and this was not being submitted to the FAA.He reprimanded us for not coordinating with them prior to departing and for not trusting the controller's years of experience as a SoCal controller. I mentioned to him that his controller may know the airspace very well; but we did not and were relying on what our low-altitude enroute charts said. I also mentioned that we were more worried about airspace farther to the east where the MORA's were in the range of 12;900 ft and higher; well outside of SoCal's airspace. We agreed that prior coordination would have made this a non-issue and I held my tongue concerning that controller's less than friendly tone with us. We were trying to be as safe and conservative as possible and ended up getting into the way of a few arrivals/departures into LAX. I understand their frustration but am certain [the Captain] made the right call. I support and agree with his judgment on the matter.Prior to doing any abnormal routes or having any restrictions for our flights; we need to coordinate that with all ATC facilities along our route. Clearly SoCal had no idea why we needed to stay down low and remain on our current flight. We should be working together as a team; and need to change the mentality of 'us vs. them' with respect to controllers and pilots. Also; I would argue that we should never have received our original clearance out of ZZZ if it meant causing such an issue with SoCal down the road. Hope this helps and sorry for any inconvenience we may have caused today.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.