37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 1255112 |
Time | |
Date | 201504 |
Local Time Of Day | 1201-1800 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | MSN.Airport |
State Reference | WI |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Make Model Name | Medium Transport Low Wing 2 Turbojet Eng |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | Initial Climb |
Route In Use | None |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Make Model Name | Small Aircraft |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 91 |
Flight Phase | Other VFR Traffic Pattern |
Route In Use | None |
Flight Plan | VFR |
Person 1 | |
Function | Flight Data / Clearance Delivery Ground Supervisor / CIC |
Qualification | Air Traffic Control Fully Certified |
Experience | Air Traffic Control Time Certified In Pos 1 (yrs) 1.5 |
Person 2 | |
Function | Pilot Flying First Officer |
Qualification | Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP) |
Experience | Flight Crew Total 4300 |
Events | |
Anomaly | ATC Issue All Types Conflict NMAC Deviation - Procedural Clearance Deviation - Track / Heading All Types |
Narrative:
I was working ground control; flight data; and controller in charge combined (ground control/FD/controller in charge) in the tower and local control (local control) was stand alone for the use of line up and wait. I was not working the aircraft at the time of the event; I was trying to watch local control point outs I think he had 3 at the time of the event and one was at pattern altitude which was a conflict for his pattern traffic. I heard him tell the pattern guy aircraft Y to make right traffic and stay at 1;500 feet for the low point out at 2;000 feet. Then I heard him say;' no make right traffic; right traffic!' then local control cleared aircraft X for take off. After the point out situation was fixed we started looking for the pattern guy. Aircraft X departed 36 and the pattern guy was on a left downwind just after his crosswind on runway 3. By the time I noticed the pattern guy he was west of 36 and west of taxiway alpha. Which is still close; but I would guess a few thousand feet away. I think aircraft X was mad that the guy was that close. Because of the runway lay out the downwind turn for left traffic is just west of runway 36. I think a combination of pilot error and readback hearback is why this event happened; also the large number of pointouts from radar. Usually the local pilots are pretty good; if they read back something wrong and you fix it they usually get it first try. We do a lot of touch-and-goes so usually there is an instructor on board. In this case it sounds like the student pilot; instructor and controller weren't on the same page. When you tell a pilot to do something 3 times there should be no question what the controller wants the pilot to do. It seems like the pilot needed to be told a fourth time. From what I heard from local control is the pilot didn't hear him say it; though from ground control you could hear the controller getting agitated which also [questions] the pilot that he isn't doing something right. By the time everyone noticed; there was nothing anyone could do; because they were passed each other.I would recommend that radar shouldn't point out so many people to the tower; especially if they are going to be under 3;000 feet. At 3;000 feet the tower really has no outs because of MVA's. We do have a lot of satellite airports and hospitals within 10 miles of the airports. Also; being so close to downtown there are a lot of city tours. So having lots of point outs isn't uncommon. When traffic is busy it's kind of a unwritten rule that tower and radar keep coordination to a minimum so each can only worry about their traffic. I think the tower here submits to radar too much. Seems like towers job is to make radars life easier. I think the word unable is under utilized here in the tower. I think unless a helicopter is a medevac which 95% are; and aircraft are shooting approaches; and city tours; radar should climb above or vector around tower airspace. As for the VFR pilots; some of them are not that experienced; we work with a large number of student pilots which adds hugely to stress and work load for all positions; because your bending over backwards to make things as easy as possible for the student and working extra hard to make things work and flow smoothly. I think when pilots are in the pattern doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same thing they get complacent; which is what I think part of this is; and controllers too. I think both sides need to strive for more perfection hear better get proper readbacks; look out the window more instead of at the d-bright worrying about pointouts they approved even though they shouldn't of ever been a pointout to begin with.I guess my ultimate fix would be keep pointsouts to a minimum. Radar should stay above or go around tower airspace and departure area to the maximum extent possible. Tower should unable more point outs because they are too lazy to vector around. I understand trying to give pilots shortcuts. But tower airspace is only 5 miles and 3;000 feet not counting the departure pie. So I don't think 5 miles around is a very big delay. Because of this event that is how I will now work radar and unable more pointouts in the tower.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: An MSN Ground Controller and pilot of an aircraft report of a NMAC at MSN. The conflicting aircraft was off course in the traffic pattern and Local had to tell the pilot four times to make right traffic. Local Control departed the reporting pilot's aircraft and did not issue traffic to pilots.
Narrative: I was working Ground Control; Flight Data; and Controller In Charge combined (GC/FD/CIC) in the tower and Local Control (LC) was stand alone for the use of line up and wait. I was not working the aircraft at the time of the event; I was trying to watch LC point outs I think he had 3 at the time of the event and one was at pattern altitude which was a conflict for his pattern traffic. I heard him tell the pattern guy Aircraft Y to make right traffic and stay at 1;500 feet for the low point out at 2;000 feet. Then I heard him say;' No make right traffic; right traffic!' Then LC cleared Aircraft X for take off. After the point out situation was fixed we started looking for the pattern guy. Aircraft X departed 36 and the pattern guy was on a left downwind just after his crosswind on runway 3. By the time I noticed the pattern guy he was west of 36 and west of taxiway Alpha. Which is still close; but I would guess a few thousand feet away. I think Aircraft X was mad that the guy was that close. Because of the runway lay out the downwind turn for left traffic is just west of runway 36. I think a combination of pilot error and readback hearback is why this event happened; also the large number of pointouts from radar. Usually the local pilots are pretty good; if they read back something wrong and you fix it they usually get it first try. We do a lot of touch-and-goes so usually there is an instructor on board. In this case it sounds like the student pilot; instructor and controller weren't on the same page. When you tell a pilot to do something 3 times there should be no question what the controller wants the pilot to do. It seems like the pilot needed to be told a fourth time. From what I heard from LC is the pilot didn't hear him say it; though from ground control you could hear the controller getting agitated which also [questions] the pilot that he isn't doing something right. By the time everyone noticed; there was nothing anyone could do; because they were passed each other.I would recommend that radar shouldn't point out so many people to the tower; especially if they are going to be under 3;000 feet. At 3;000 feet the tower really has no outs because of MVA's. We do have a lot of satellite airports and hospitals within 10 miles of the airports. Also; being so close to downtown there are a lot of city tours. So having lots of point outs isn't uncommon. When traffic is busy it's kind of a unwritten rule that tower and radar keep coordination to a minimum so each can only worry about their traffic. I think the tower here submits to radar too much. Seems like towers job is to make radars life easier. I think the word unable is under utilized here in the tower. I think unless a helicopter is a medevac which 95% are; and aircraft are shooting approaches; and city tours; radar should climb above or vector around tower airspace. As for the VFR pilots; some of them are not that experienced; we work with a large number of student pilots which adds hugely to stress and work load for all positions; because your bending over backwards to make things as easy as possible for the student and working extra hard to make things work and flow smoothly. I think when pilots are in the pattern doing the same thing over and over and expecting the same thing they get complacent; which is what I think part of this is; and controllers too. I think both sides need to strive for more perfection hear better get proper readbacks; look out the window more instead of at the D-Bright worrying about pointouts they approved even though they shouldn't of ever been a pointout to begin with.I guess my ultimate fix would be keep pointsouts to a minimum. Radar should stay above or go around tower airspace and departure area to the maximum extent possible. Tower should unable more point outs because they are too lazy to vector around. I understand trying to give pilots shortcuts. But tower airspace is only 5 miles and 3;000 feet not counting the departure pie. So I don't think 5 miles around is a very big delay. Because of this event that is how I will now work radar and unable more pointouts in the tower.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.