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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 128162 |
Time | |
Date | 198911 |
Day | Tue |
Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : lga |
State Reference | NY |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 3000 msl bound upper : 3500 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | Mixed |
Light | Dawn |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : n90 tracon : zid |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
Navigation In Use | Other |
Flight Phase | climbout : initial |
Route In Use | departure sid : sid |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Large Transport, Low Wing, 3 Turbojet Eng |
Flight Phase | climbout : initial |
Route In Use | departure sid : sid |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : cfi |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 8400 flight time type : 400 |
ASRS Report | 128162 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Events | |
Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : published procedure non adherence : required legal separation |
Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | flight crew : took evasive action none taken : detected after the fact |
Consequence | Other |
Miss Distance | horizontal : 4000 vertical : 500 |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Operational Error |
Narrative:
Recently I was confronted with a situation that merits review! We were taxiing for takeoff behind an air carrier large transport at laguardia airport. Both aircraft were cleared for an lga 3 SID with a whitestone climb. As we both neared the end of the runway 'our' clrncs were both amended to fly the lga 3 SID with a maspeth climb. On this departure off runway 13 a right turn to 175 is initiated after takeoff while climbing to 5000'. Upon passing 3000' the SID instructs the pilot to turn right to 340 while crossing the lga 220 radial at or above 4500'. The large transport was cleared for takeoff with a departure frequency of 120.8. We were then cleared into position for takeoff and given a new departure frequency of 120.4. We climbed into the overcast and broke out at about 3000'. We began our right turn to 340. At this point I observed an aircraft turning with us and at about the same altitude. I immediately leveled off and began a turn back to the south. If we had been trying to rejoin as in formation this would have been a perfect rejoin. As soon as we started our turn new york TRACON issued a turn to 175 to us. The other aircraft turned out to be the air carrier large transport that had departed lga just prior to us. Evidently our climb rate was so great that we were in a position to out turn him. If we had been in the clouds I shudder to think of the possible scenario. This procedure merits a review in light of today's intermix of new/old generation aircraft and their respective capabilities. It seems to me that a DME/radial turn point could help to alleviate this situation.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ACR, WHILE FLYING A SID, CAME IN CLOSE PROX TO A PREVIOUS DEP ALSO ON THE SID.
Narrative: RECENTLY I WAS CONFRONTED WITH A SITUATION THAT MERITS REVIEW! WE WERE TAXIING FOR TKOF BEHIND AN ACR LGT AT LAGUARDIA ARPT. BOTH ACFT WERE CLRED FOR AN LGA 3 SID WITH A WHITESTONE CLIMB. AS WE BOTH NEARED THE END OF THE RWY 'OUR' CLRNCS WERE BOTH AMENDED TO FLY THE LGA 3 SID WITH A MASPETH CLIMB. ON THIS DEP OFF RWY 13 A RIGHT TURN TO 175 IS INITIATED AFTER TKOF WHILE CLIMBING TO 5000'. UPON PASSING 3000' THE SID INSTRUCTS THE PLT TO TURN RIGHT TO 340 WHILE XING THE LGA 220 RADIAL AT OR ABOVE 4500'. THE LGT WAS CLRED FOR TKOF WITH A DEP FREQ OF 120.8. WE WERE THEN CLRED INTO POSITION FOR TKOF AND GIVEN A NEW DEP FREQ OF 120.4. WE CLIMBED INTO THE OVERCAST AND BROKE OUT AT ABOUT 3000'. WE BEGAN OUR RIGHT TURN TO 340. AT THIS POINT I OBSERVED AN ACFT TURNING WITH US AND AT ABOUT THE SAME ALT. I IMMEDIATELY LEVELED OFF AND BEGAN A TURN BACK TO THE SOUTH. IF WE HAD BEEN TRYING TO REJOIN AS IN FORMATION THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN A PERFECT REJOIN. AS SOON AS WE STARTED OUR TURN NEW YORK TRACON ISSUED A TURN TO 175 TO US. THE OTHER ACFT TURNED OUT TO BE THE ACR LGT THAT HAD DEPARTED LGA JUST PRIOR TO US. EVIDENTLY OUR CLIMB RATE WAS SO GREAT THAT WE WERE IN A POSITION TO OUT TURN HIM. IF WE HAD BEEN IN THE CLOUDS I SHUDDER TO THINK OF THE POSSIBLE SCENARIO. THIS PROC MERITS A REVIEW IN LIGHT OF TODAY'S INTERMIX OF NEW/OLD GENERATION ACFT AND THEIR RESPECTIVE CAPABILITIES. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT A DME/RADIAL TURN POINT COULD HELP TO ALLEVIATE THIS SITUATION.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of August 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.