37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 1535633 |
Time | |
Date | 201804 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | MROC.Airport |
State Reference | FO |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Aircraft 1 | |
Make Model Name | B737 Undifferentiated or Other Model |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | Climb Initial Climb |
Route In Use | Vectors |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Function | Flight Data / Clearance Delivery Captain |
Qualification | Flight Crew Air Transport Pilot (ATP) Flight Crew Instrument Flight Crew Multiengine |
Experience | Flight Crew Total 8903 |
Events | |
Anomaly | ATC Issue All Types |
Narrative:
Wanted to alert you to a potential terrain issue as I see it with a recent clearance I received out of mroc. I have flown into/out of mroc periodically throughout the years and as I recall [I] have never been given anything but a SID when departing runway 07. Yesterday we were given the following from ATC clearance. 'Climb runway heading until passing 7;000 feet. Then turn right to heading 290'.the problem I see is that the turn is based on height; not distance and with rapidly rising terrain to the east; a heavy aircraft could potentially be put into a CFIT escape maneuver. The 10-7 safety box does give guidance on making a turn at 4-DME regardless of altitude and references to disregard 5;500 feet. And also states that the 5;500 feet restriction is not terrain critical. Unfortunately; this could be confusing to pilots with my issued clearance because the 5;500 feet statement would be ambiguous at best. It isn't until you look at the sids that turn to the south that the '4-DME and 5;500 feet' statement then starts to make sense; as to why it's in the safety box. In that case; if issued one of those sids (POAS4 for example) it would then correlate the 10-7 statement to disregard the altitude with the 5;500 feet restriction on the POAS4 SID. In my case; a pilot would have to research sids that were not issued by clearance delivery to then ponder if the 10-7 safety box alert applies to a non-SID departure; or is perhaps outdated information.this clearance I was given could be because the tio VOR is notamed out of service (at least that is what I believe as the NOTAM states; 'el coco VOR/DME tio frequency 115.7 MHZ CH104X out of service.' is the VOR out of service or the channel 104X portion; whatever that is? Although with GPS capable aircraft I believe; we can use the GPS to identify vors regardless of operational status.after discussion with multiple other line check airmen; they were as confused and concerned as I was. Also; the 10-7 states to not arm VNAV on the ground; but to arm it once inbound to tio. Saber pushes an NADP1 or 2 (noise abutment departure procedure) as warranted; in which case the question becomes do we then call for 'level change set clean maneuvering speed' as allowed if not using VNAV for departure and if so why not use VNAV off the ground with the proper takeoff page 2 entries? (The engine out cleanup is not predicated on a turn). One would assume that the statement to not use VNAV until inbound to tio is to maintain V2+20 until completion of the turn; to help with radius of turn; and to stay inside the 113-degree radial of tio as referenced on the sids. Once again; as in my clearance; unless a pilot went looking at sids that he wasn't issued; at no time would they find it.I was generated a flaps 1 reduced thrust takeoff off of runway 07. Looking at the radar ASR runway 7 plate; there is 7;514 feet terrain at approximately 8 miles from the departure end of the runway. Given my clearance; with a saber generated flaps 1 reduced thrust takeoff and an approximate ground speed of 200 knots at V2+20 a pilot would have 2.4 minutes until over this terrain. Airport elevation is approximately 3;000 feet MSL. A turn at 7;000 feet as in my clearance; I would have needed to average a climb of 1;875 FPM to avoid (by 1 foot) the terrain if I didn't turn until 7;500 feet; or if turning right at 7;000 feet would have turned inside the terrain and missed it by a little over a mile. Less climb rate obviously would put this terrain into play and a heavy aircraft I would doubt could average 1;875 FPM.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: B737 Captain reported a potential terrain issue with a recent ATC clearance at MROC airport.
Narrative: Wanted to alert you to a potential terrain issue as I see it with a recent clearance I received out of MROC. I have flown into/out of MROC periodically throughout the years and as I recall [I] have never been given anything but a SID when departing runway 07. Yesterday we were given the following from ATC clearance. 'Climb runway heading until passing 7;000 feet. then turn right to heading 290'.The problem I see is that the turn is based on height; not distance and with rapidly rising terrain to the east; a heavy aircraft could potentially be put into a CFIT escape maneuver. The 10-7 safety box does give guidance on making a turn at 4-DME regardless of altitude and references to disregard 5;500 feet. and also states that the 5;500 feet restriction is not terrain critical. Unfortunately; this could be confusing to pilots with my issued clearance because the 5;500 feet statement would be ambiguous at best. It isn't until you look at the SIDs that turn to the south that the '4-DME and 5;500 feet' statement then starts to make sense; as to why it's in the safety box. In that case; if issued one of those SIDs (POAS4 for example) it would then correlate the 10-7 statement to disregard the altitude with the 5;500 feet restriction on the POAS4 SID. In my case; a pilot would have to research SIDs that were not issued by clearance delivery to then ponder if the 10-7 safety box alert applies to a non-SID departure; or is perhaps outdated information.This clearance I was given could be because the TIO VOR is NOTAMed out of service (at least that is what I believe as the NOTAM states; 'EL COCO VOR/DME TIO FREQ 115.7 MHZ CH104X OUT OF SERVICE.' Is the VOR out of service or the channel 104X portion; whatever that is? Although with GPS capable aircraft I believe; we can use the GPS to identify VORs regardless of operational status.After discussion with multiple other Line Check Airmen; they were as confused and concerned as I was. Also; the 10-7 states to not arm VNAV on the ground; but to arm it once inbound to TIO. SABER pushes an NADP1 or 2 (Noise Abutment Departure Procedure) as warranted; in which case the question becomes do we then call for 'level change set clean maneuvering speed' as allowed if not using VNAV for departure and if so why not use VNAV off the ground with the proper takeoff page 2 entries? (The engine out cleanup is not predicated on a turn). One would assume that the statement to not use VNAV until inbound to TIO is to maintain V2+20 until completion of the turn; to help with radius of turn; and to stay inside the 113-degree radial of TIO as referenced on the SIDs. Once again; as in my clearance; unless a pilot went looking at SIDs that he wasn't issued; at no time would they find it.I was generated a flaps 1 reduced thrust takeoff off of runway 07. Looking at the Radar ASR runway 7 plate; there is 7;514 feet terrain at approximately 8 miles from the departure end of the runway. Given my clearance; with a SABER generated flaps 1 reduced thrust takeoff and an approximate ground speed of 200 knots at V2+20 a pilot would have 2.4 minutes until over this terrain. Airport elevation is approximately 3;000 feet MSL. A turn at 7;000 feet as in my clearance; I would have needed to average a climb of 1;875 FPM to avoid (by 1 foot) the terrain if I didn't turn until 7;500 feet; or if turning right at 7;000 feet would have turned inside the terrain and missed it by a little over a mile. Less climb rate obviously would put this terrain into play and a heavy aircraft I would doubt could average 1;875 FPM.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.