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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 232700 |
Time | |
Date | 199301 |
Day | Sat |
Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : lgb |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 1000 msl bound upper : 3000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : sna tower : lgb |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
Navigation In Use | Other Other |
Flight Phase | cruise other descent : approach |
Route In Use | approach : visual |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Make Model Name | Any Unknown or Unlisted Aircraft Manufacturer |
Flight Phase | cruise other |
Flight Plan | VFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 210 flight time total : 17000 flight time type : 6700 |
ASRS Report | 232700 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 3100 flight time type : 500 |
ASRS Report | 232585 |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : excursion from assigned altitude conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : clearance non adherence : far other anomaly other other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | aircraft equipment other aircraft equipment : unspecified other other : unspecified |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance flight crew : took evasive action |
Consequence | faa : investigated faa : reviewed incident with flight crew |
Miss Distance | horizontal : 4000 vertical : 300 |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation other |
Situations | |
ATC Facility | procedure or policy : unspecified |
Airport | other physical facility |
Narrative:
While on radar vectors to a downwind for landing on runway 12 we got 2 TCASII RA's which resulted in evasive TCASII commands. The first was on downwind while starting a descent. This command was to climb to avoid traffic that we did not originally see. Eventually we saw this traffic. The second RA was encountered a short time later as we were attempting to descend and turn base leg. Once again TCASII commanded another climb, with no traffic in view. Eventually we saw this aircraft off our front right. As we once again attempted a right base turn coast approach control handed us off to lgb tower. Lgb tower advised us of numerous targets including the #2 RA traffic who still continued to be a factor to us. They also asked us to maintain a specified altitude to avoid this aircraft. These 2 RA's and 1 unmentioned TA resulted in: climb or maintaining altitude and extending downwind leg. We eventually turned a 4-5 mi final/base. After landing in operations, mr X from coast approach control called me and was curious about our RA's and our visual approach. I asked if there was a problem and he said he may have to file an airspace violation. I told him of our combat mission we just got through with. He said this had happened in the past where RA's had caused problems with airspace. Not once were we ever advised by coast approach or lgb tower of any airspace problems or limitations until we were in our operations area. If no RA's were ever received I would not see a problem with turning a 5 mi final on a visual approach. Airspace around lgb is simply dangerous. This circling procedure at lgb in good WX is dangerous. It takes you over the queen mary and downtown lgb. I'm not exactly sure what an airspace violation means to me. It may be something internal for ATC?
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ALTDEVS PLUS EXTENDED DOWNWIND LEG ON VISUAL APCH PUTS ACR MLG CREW INTO AN FLC ATC REVIEW THAT IMPLIES AN ERRONEOUS PENETRATION OF AIRSPACE. AIRSPACE NOT IDENTED. TCASII RA'S WERE THE INSTIGATORS OF THE INCIDENT.
Narrative: WHILE ON RADAR VECTORS TO A DOWNWIND FOR LNDG ON RWY 12 WE GOT 2 TCASII RA'S WHICH RESULTED IN EVASIVE TCASII COMMANDS. THE FIRST WAS ON DOWNWIND WHILE STARTING A DSCNT. THIS COMMAND WAS TO CLB TO AVOID TFC THAT WE DID NOT ORIGINALLY SEE. EVENTUALLY WE SAW THIS TFC. THE SECOND RA WAS ENCOUNTERED A SHORT TIME LATER AS WE WERE ATTEMPTING TO DSND AND TURN BASE LEG. ONCE AGAIN TCASII COMMANDED ANOTHER CLB, WITH NO TFC IN VIEW. EVENTUALLY WE SAW THIS ACFT OFF OUR FRONT R. AS WE ONCE AGAIN ATTEMPTED A R BASE TURN COAST APCH CTL HANDED US OFF TO LGB TWR. LGB TWR ADVISED US OF NUMEROUS TARGETS INCLUDING THE #2 RA TFC WHO STILL CONTINUED TO BE A FACTOR TO US. THEY ALSO ASKED US TO MAINTAIN A SPECIFIED ALT TO AVOID THIS ACFT. THESE 2 RA'S AND 1 UNMENTIONED TA RESULTED IN: CLB OR MAINTAINING ALT AND EXTENDING DOWNWIND LEG. WE EVENTUALLY TURNED A 4-5 MI FINAL/BASE. AFTER LNDG IN OPS, MR X FROM COAST APCH CTL CALLED ME AND WAS CURIOUS ABOUT OUR RA'S AND OUR VISUAL APCH. I ASKED IF THERE WAS A PROB AND HE SAID HE MAY HAVE TO FILE AN AIRSPACE VIOLATION. I TOLD HIM OF OUR COMBAT MISSION WE JUST GOT THROUGH WITH. HE SAID THIS HAD HAPPENED IN THE PAST WHERE RA'S HAD CAUSED PROBS WITH AIRSPACE. NOT ONCE WERE WE EVER ADVISED BY COAST APCH OR LGB TWR OF ANY AIRSPACE PROBS OR LIMITATIONS UNTIL WE WERE IN OUR OPS AREA. IF NO RA'S WERE EVER RECEIVED I WOULD NOT SEE A PROB WITH TURNING A 5 MI FINAL ON A VISUAL APCH. AIRSPACE AROUND LGB IS SIMPLY DANGEROUS. THIS CIRCLING PROC AT LGB IN GOOD WX IS DANGEROUS. IT TAKES YOU OVER THE QUEEN MARY AND DOWNTOWN LGB. I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHAT AN AIRSPACE VIOLATION MEANS TO ME. IT MAY BE SOMETHING INTERNAL FOR ATC?
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.