37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 237367 |
Time | |
Date | 199303 |
Day | Fri |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | atc facility : fgt |
State Reference | MN |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 7000 msl bound upper : 10000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Light Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turboprop Eng |
Flight Phase | cruise other descent other other |
Route In Use | arrival other arrival star : star enroute airway : zmp |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : instrument pilot : cfi |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 190 flight time total : 1800 flight time type : 190 |
ASRS Report | 237367 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Events | |
Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : required legal separation non adherence : clearance |
Independent Detector | other controllera other flight crewa |
Resolutory Action | flight crew : returned to intended course or assigned course |
Consequence | Other |
Miss Distance | horizontal : 12000 vertical : 0 |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
Narrative:
Metering was in process at msp and we were given a clearance for holding at canen intersection (20 DME south of fgt). The clearance read: 'hold south of canen intersection as published at 7000 expect further clearance XX45.' we continued at 10000 ft for another 5 mi and noticed an aircraft ahead of us about 5 mi at the same altitude. My captain pointed the aircraft out and I suggested that maybe we should have started our descent to 7000. My captain stated that he wasn't aware of the 7000 altitude in the clearance because he didn't hear it and the altitude was not put on the altitude alerter. In the meantime, I was trying to get a break on the radio so I could query ATC on the holding clearance we received and if we were supposed to have left our altitude of 10000 ft when we received the holding clearance. My captain started to push the nose down to avoid close conflict with the other aircraft at our altitude. At the same time, ATC told us to start our descent immediately to 7000 ft. ATC did sound urgent, and we knew that he was concerned about the conflicting traffic. There was no evasive action taken. In fact, we maintained VFR separation, but I am still not sure if we violated a clearance or not. My captain felt that it was (the holding clearance) a pilot's discretion clearance down to 7000 ft since ATC did not tell us to start down right away. Ways we could have avoided the situation: 1) I should have discussed the clearance with my captain, made sure he heard and understood clearance. Asked questions. 2) don't forget stand and procedure (entering altitude in alerter), this was my job! 3) made sure I understood the clearance completely! Things that led to the problem: 1) last leg of a 13 hour duty day. I was tired. 2) I feel I may have been a little passive in the VFR WX. We flew in a lot of IMC WX all day, 4-5 approachs (IFR). It was a relief to fly in VFR WX in the last part of our leg arriving msp. 3) not making sure my captain understood the clearance.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: COMMUTER FLC CONFUSED REF HOLDING CLRNC. FAIL TO DSND IN TIMELY MANNER.
Narrative: METERING WAS IN PROCESS AT MSP AND WE WERE GIVEN A CLRNC FOR HOLDING AT CANEN INTXN (20 DME S OF FGT). THE CLRNC READ: 'HOLD S OF CANEN INTXN AS PUBLISHED AT 7000 EXPECT FURTHER CLRNC XX45.' WE CONTINUED AT 10000 FT FOR ANOTHER 5 MI AND NOTICED AN ACFT AHEAD OF US ABOUT 5 MI AT THE SAME ALT. MY CAPT POINTED THE ACFT OUT AND I SUGGESTED THAT MAYBE WE SHOULD HAVE STARTED OUR DSCNT TO 7000. MY CAPT STATED THAT HE WASN'T AWARE OF THE 7000 ALT IN THE CLRNC BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HEAR IT AND THE ALT WAS NOT PUT ON THE ALT ALERTER. IN THE MEANTIME, I WAS TRYING TO GET A BREAK ON THE RADIO SO I COULD QUERY ATC ON THE HOLDING CLRNC WE RECEIVED AND IF WE WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE LEFT OUR ALT OF 10000 FT WHEN WE RECEIVED THE HOLDING CLRNC. MY CAPT STARTED TO PUSH THE NOSE DOWN TO AVOID CLOSE CONFLICT WITH THE OTHER ACFT AT OUR ALT. AT THE SAME TIME, ATC TOLD US TO START OUR DSCNT IMMEDIATELY TO 7000 FT. ATC DID SOUND URGENT, AND WE KNEW THAT HE WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE CONFLICTING TFC. THERE WAS NO EVASIVE ACTION TAKEN. IN FACT, WE MAINTAINED VFR SEPARATION, BUT I AM STILL NOT SURE IF WE VIOLATED A CLRNC OR NOT. MY CAPT FELT THAT IT WAS (THE HOLDING CLRNC) A PLT'S DISCRETION CLRNC DOWN TO 7000 FT SINCE ATC DID NOT TELL US TO START DOWN RIGHT AWAY. WAYS WE COULD HAVE AVOIDED THE SIT: 1) I SHOULD HAVE DISCUSSED THE CLRNC WITH MY CAPT, MADE SURE HE HEARD AND UNDERSTOOD CLRNC. ASKED QUESTIONS. 2) DON'T FORGET STAND AND PROC (ENTERING ALT IN ALERTER), THIS WAS MY JOB! 3) MADE SURE I UNDERSTOOD THE CLRNC COMPLETELY! THINGS THAT LED TO THE PROB: 1) LAST LEG OF A 13 HR DUTY DAY. I WAS TIRED. 2) I FEEL I MAY HAVE BEEN A LITTLE PASSIVE IN THE VFR WX. WE FLEW IN A LOT OF IMC WX ALL DAY, 4-5 APCHS (IFR). IT WAS A RELIEF TO FLY IN VFR WX IN THE LAST PART OF OUR LEG ARRIVING MSP. 3) NOT MAKING SURE MY CAPT UNDERSTOOD THE CLRNC.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.