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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 251681 |
Time | |
Date | 199309 |
Day | Mon |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : pdx |
State Reference | OR |
Altitude | agl bound lower : 700 agl bound upper : 700 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tower : pdx |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
Navigation In Use | Other Other |
Flight Phase | descent : approach landing : go around |
Route In Use | approach : visual |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Make Model Name | Small Aircraft, High Wing, 1 Eng, Fixed Gear |
Flight Phase | descent : approach |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : instrument pilot : flight engineer pilot : commercial pilot : cfi |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 50 flight time total : 4670 flight time type : 170 |
ASRS Report | 251681 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Events | |
Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : published procedure other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | aircraft equipment other aircraft equipment : unspecified |
Resolutory Action | flight crew : took evasive action other |
Consequence | Other |
Supplementary | |
Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | other |
Situations | |
ATC Facility | procedure or policy : unspecified |
Narrative:
To begin with I am a first officer for abc airlines on the medium large transport X. Since I've been on this airplane, I'm constantly discovering that ATC holds us consistently high which makes it difficult for us to descend using normal rates of descent. Almost every approach is flown at idle power with the gear, flaps, spoilers, and everything else, including the kitchen sink, hanging out in order to reach the runway in time to land. At the absolute best we're usually getting stabilized on the approach with the engines spooled up at around 500-1000 ft AGL almost every time. I'm sure ATC may not be aware of it, but the medium large transport X just won't come out of the air like the large transport Y would. As for our incident into pdx we were held high as usual. I had slowed to minimum maneuver speed with flaps at 10 degrees (this was 160 KTS in our confign that night) by the time we were downwind. We were downwind abeam the runway at 6000 ft MSL before ATC finally gave us lower. They then cleared us for the mill visual to runway 28R and we were told to turn in as soon as possible due to a jet east of us. Also, we were asked to stay over the river for as long as possible for noise abatement. I almost immediately configured for landing and went to final approach speed but we still were having a hard time getting down. On final to runway 28R ATC asked us to sidestep to runway 28L due to traffic north of pdx (an small aircraft) that had just been cleared to land on runway 28R. At about 700-1000 ft AGL we were just starting to get in normal position when the TCASII gave us an RA so I went around. On the missed approach pdx departure sent us to 6000 ft MSL and again that kept us very high and still expected us to come down like a rock and make a tight approach. Someone needs to tell ATC not only at pdx, but everywhere, that the new generation of aircraft just won't come out of the air like the older generation of aircraft do. We've got to have more time and distance to get configured. As for our RA at pdx I feel that we probably wouldn't have gotten an RA had we not had such a high rate of descent on final as we were sidestepping over to the parallel runway. Neither one of us in the cockpit saw the airplane and pdx tower said that he was no factor on the parallel runway. Several passenger told our flight attendants as they were leaving that they saw an airplane pass under us as we went around. I believe they saw the airplane go by on the parallel runway as we went around although I guess it's possible there may have been a third airplane out there that neither me, the captain, nor ATC saw. If that's the case then I'm glad we had the TCASII.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: MLG HAS TCASII RA AT 700 FT AGL ON APCH.
Narrative: TO BEGIN WITH I AM A FO FOR ABC AIRLINES ON THE MLG X. SINCE I'VE BEEN ON THIS AIRPLANE, I'M CONSTANTLY DISCOVERING THAT ATC HOLDS US CONSISTENTLY HIGH WHICH MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR US TO DSND USING NORMAL RATES OF DSCNT. ALMOST EVERY APCH IS FLOWN AT IDLE PWR WITH THE GEAR, FLAPS, SPOILERS, AND EVERYTHING ELSE, INCLUDING THE KITCHEN SINK, HANGING OUT IN ORDER TO REACH THE RWY IN TIME TO LAND. AT THE ABSOLUTE BEST WE'RE USUALLY GETTING STABILIZED ON THE APCH WITH THE ENGS SPOOLED UP AT AROUND 500-1000 FT AGL ALMOST EVERY TIME. I'M SURE ATC MAY NOT BE AWARE OF IT, BUT THE MLG X JUST WON'T COME OUT OF THE AIR LIKE THE LGT Y WOULD. AS FOR OUR INCIDENT INTO PDX WE WERE HELD HIGH AS USUAL. I HAD SLOWED TO MINIMUM MANEUVER SPD WITH FLAPS AT 10 DEGS (THIS WAS 160 KTS IN OUR CONFIGN THAT NIGHT) BY THE TIME WE WERE DOWNWIND. WE WERE DOWNWIND ABEAM THE RWY AT 6000 FT MSL BEFORE ATC FINALLY GAVE US LOWER. THEY THEN CLRED US FOR THE MILL VISUAL TO RWY 28R AND WE WERE TOLD TO TURN IN ASAP DUE TO A JET E OF US. ALSO, WE WERE ASKED TO STAY OVER THE RIVER FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE FOR NOISE ABATEMENT. I ALMOST IMMEDIATELY CONFIGURED FOR LNDG AND WENT TO FINAL APCH SPD BUT WE STILL WERE HAVING A HARD TIME GETTING DOWN. ON FINAL TO RWY 28R ATC ASKED US TO SIDESTEP TO RWY 28L DUE TO TFC N OF PDX (AN SMA) THAT HAD JUST BEEN CLRED TO LAND ON RWY 28R. AT ABOUT 700-1000 FT AGL WE WERE JUST STARTING TO GET IN NORMAL POS WHEN THE TCASII GAVE US AN RA SO I WENT AROUND. ON THE MISSED APCH PDX DEP SENT US TO 6000 FT MSL AND AGAIN THAT KEPT US VERY HIGH AND STILL EXPECTED US TO COME DOWN LIKE A ROCK AND MAKE A TIGHT APCH. SOMEONE NEEDS TO TELL ATC NOT ONLY AT PDX, BUT EVERYWHERE, THAT THE NEW GENERATION OF ACFT JUST WON'T COME OUT OF THE AIR LIKE THE OLDER GENERATION OF ACFT DO. WE'VE GOT TO HAVE MORE TIME AND DISTANCE TO GET CONFIGURED. AS FOR OUR RA AT PDX I FEEL THAT WE PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN AN RA HAD WE NOT HAD SUCH A HIGH RATE OF DSCNT ON FINAL AS WE WERE SIDESTEPPING OVER TO THE PARALLEL RWY. NEITHER ONE OF US IN THE COCKPIT SAW THE AIRPLANE AND PDX TWR SAID THAT HE WAS NO FACTOR ON THE PARALLEL RWY. SEVERAL PAX TOLD OUR FLT ATTENDANTS AS THEY WERE LEAVING THAT THEY SAW AN AIRPLANE PASS UNDER US AS WE WENT AROUND. I BELIEVE THEY SAW THE AIRPLANE GO BY ON THE PARALLEL RWY AS WE WENT AROUND ALTHOUGH I GUESS IT'S POSSIBLE THERE MAY HAVE BEEN A THIRD AIRPLANE OUT THERE THAT NEITHER ME, THE CAPT, NOR ATC SAW. IF THAT'S THE CASE THEN I'M GLAD WE HAD THE TCASII.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.