Flight attendant-28 initial deicing procedure was not satisfactory. Aircraft confign during deice pr...

Attributes
ACN	299329
Time
Date	199503
Local Time Of Day	0601 To 1200
Place
Locale Reference	airport : pit
State Reference	PA
Altitude	agl bound lower : 0 agl bound upper : 0
Environment
Flight Conditions	IMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng
Flight Phase	ground : preflight ground other : taxi
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : cfi pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 210 flight time total : 6200 flight time type : 4000
ASRS Report	299329
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : atp
Events
Anomaly	aircraft equipment problem : critical other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	flight crew : overcame equipment problem other
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Air Traffic Incident	other

Narrative:

Aircraft was at gate in pit for 1 hour with tail pointing north. Snow was falling with a north wind of about 15 KTS. We left the gate and taxied to the deicing area with flaps up as per company procedures. We were deiced with type I and ii fluids, and the ground crew completed the post-application check. After deicing, the flaps were cycled and then set to 18 degrees for takeoff. Just prior to takeoff I went back to the cabin to conduct the required pre-takeoff check from the cabin windows. Although the wing upper surfaces were 'clean,' the forward area of the flap upper surfaces (both sides) had substantial amounts of snow. Obviously we returned for another deicing, this time with flaps extended. If this had occurred at night I do not think I would have been able to see the snow on the flaps. I believe that while the aircraft was at the gate snow blew into the space between the flap upper surface and wing lower surface. Since we deiced the airplane with flaps up, this snow was not removed by the deicing fluid or visible to the ground crew. The snow was only visible after flaps were extended for takeoff. In addition to the obvious aerodynamic penalties, this snow may have been a foreign object damage hazard due to the location of the engines aft of the flaps. I believe that this aircraft type (fokker 28) should be deiced with flaps in takeoff position. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following: the airline management policy has no set ruling on the setting of the flaps during a deicing procedure. They have a ruling on the F-100 and 'bounce around' with variable flap settings for that aircraft during deicing but no specific position has been settled upon. The airline wants the manufacturer to state the guidance on this flap issue and will probably do the same regarding this flight attendant-28 aircraft. Reporter highly recommends that these flaps be extended to at least the takeoff position for deicing purposes.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: FA-28 INITIAL DEICING PROC WAS NOT SATISFACTORY. ACFT CONFIGN DURING DEICE PROC REQUIRES FLAPS BEING EXTENDED TO THE TKOF POS TO CATCH ACCRUED SNOW DEPOSITS.

Narrative: ACFT WAS AT GATE IN PIT FOR 1 HR WITH TAIL POINTING N. SNOW WAS FALLING WITH A N WIND OF ABOUT 15 KTS. WE LEFT THE GATE AND TAXIED TO THE DEICING AREA WITH FLAPS UP AS PER COMPANY PROCS. WE WERE DEICED WITH TYPE I AND II FLUIDS, AND THE GND CREW COMPLETED THE POST-APPLICATION CHK. AFTER DEICING, THE FLAPS WERE CYCLED AND THEN SET TO 18 DEGS FOR TKOF. JUST PRIOR TO TKOF I WENT BACK TO THE CABIN TO CONDUCT THE REQUIRED PRE-TKOF CHK FROM THE CABIN WINDOWS. ALTHOUGH THE WING UPPER SURFACES WERE 'CLEAN,' THE FORWARD AREA OF THE FLAP UPPER SURFACES (BOTH SIDES) HAD SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNTS OF SNOW. OBVIOUSLY WE RETURNED FOR ANOTHER DEICING, THIS TIME WITH FLAPS EXTENDED. IF THIS HAD OCCURRED AT NIGHT I DO NOT THINK I WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE THE SNOW ON THE FLAPS. I BELIEVE THAT WHILE THE ACFT WAS AT THE GATE SNOW BLEW INTO THE SPACE BTWN THE FLAP UPPER SURFACE AND WING LOWER SURFACE. SINCE WE DEICED THE AIRPLANE WITH FLAPS UP, THIS SNOW WAS NOT REMOVED BY THE DEICING FLUID OR VISIBLE TO THE GND CREW. THE SNOW WAS ONLY VISIBLE AFTER FLAPS WERE EXTENDED FOR TKOF. IN ADDITION TO THE OBVIOUS AERODYNAMIC PENALTIES, THIS SNOW MAY HAVE BEEN A FOREIGN OBJECT DAMAGE HAZARD DUE TO THE LOCATION OF THE ENGS AFT OF THE FLAPS. I BELIEVE THAT THIS ACFT TYPE (FOKKER 28) SHOULD BE DEICED WITH FLAPS IN TKOF POS. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING: THE AIRLINE MGMNT POLICY HAS NO SET RULING ON THE SETTING OF THE FLAPS DURING A DEICING PROC. THEY HAVE A RULING ON THE F-100 AND 'BOUNCE AROUND' WITH VARIABLE FLAP SETTINGS FOR THAT ACFT DURING DEICING BUT NO SPECIFIC POS HAS BEEN SETTLED UPON. THE AIRLINE WANTS THE MANUFACTURER TO STATE THE GUIDANCE ON THIS FLAP ISSUE AND WILL PROBABLY DO THE SAME REGARDING THIS FA-28 ACFT. RPTR HIGHLY RECOMMENDS THAT THESE FLAPS BE EXTENDED TO AT LEAST THE TKOF POS FOR DEICING PURPOSES.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

Flight attendant-28 initial deicing procedure was not satisfactory. Aircraft confign during deice procedure requires flaps being extended to the takeoff position to catch accrued snow deposits.