Air carrier flight crew received an unconstructive response from approach controller when they relat...

Attributes
ACN	308086
Time
Date	199506
Day	Thu
Local Time Of Day	1201 To 1800
Place
Locale Reference	atc facility : rmg
State Reference	GA
Altitude	msl bound lower : 13000 msl bound upper : 14000
Environment
Flight Conditions	VMC
Light	Daylight
Aircraft 1
Controlling Facilities	artcc : ztl tracon : atl
Operator	common carrier : air carrier
Make Model Name	B737-200
Operating Under FAR Part	Part 121
Flight Phase	descent other
Route In Use	arrival other arrival star : star enroute airway : atl
Flight Plan	IFR
Person 1
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : captain oversight : pic
Qualification	pilot : instrument pilot : flight engineer pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 10000 flight time type : 5000
ASRS Report	308086
Person 2
Affiliation	company : air carrier
Function	flight crew : first officer
Qualification	pilot : atp
Experience	flight time last 90 days : 150 flight time total : 4000 flight time type : 150
ASRS Report	308084
Events
Anomaly	altitude deviation : undershoot altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met non adherence : clearance other anomaly other
Independent Detector	other flight crewa
Resolutory Action	none taken : anomaly accepted other
Consequence	Other
Supplementary
Primary Problem	ATC Human Performance
Air Traffic Incident	other

Narrative:

At the above location, ZTL told us to cross erlin at 13000 ft and 250 KTS. I immediately began a rapid descent from FL240 at 320 KTS in order to slow to 250 KTS and be at 13000 ft in 30 mi. Shortly after this clearance, we were asked if we could slow to 270 KTS immediately and still make the restrs. We replied 'negative,' center then gave us a 30 degree left turn and told us to slow to 270 KTS. As we approached rmg he gave us a 60 degree right turn and again told us to cross erlin at 13000 ft and 250 KTS, and he gave us a frequency change to atl approach. When we could get through on the new frequency, we informed the approach controller that we could not make the restr. His response was 'roger.' we said, 'understand the restr is removed.'he said, 'no, that's not my airspace, I'm just acknowledging that you can't make the restr.' at this time we were over erlin intersection at 14000 ft, 270 KTS. I would point out that we were the 4TH or 5TH aircraft in succession who had told the center controller that we could not make an erlin restr because he had waited too late to issue a descent clearance. It appeared from the tone of voice on the part of the approach controller that he was not happy with the way aircraft were being handed off to him by ZTL. We wondered why we were talking to the controller if we were not in his airspace. After the 4TH or 5TH aircraft, you would hope that the center controller would realize he was giving unrealistic descent clrncs. It appears that such clrncs are regularly given on the part of controllers to 'fill a square' and cover themselves without regard to the practicality of the clearance. Supplemental information from acn 308084: inspite of our best efforts we busted the restr by about 1000 ft, but due to heavy traffic on the frequency we were unable to pursue the problem and we continued the approach. It appeared from the tone of voice being used by approach control that he had been handed several aircraft he considered mishandled by ATC ZTL and he wasn't going to help resolve someone else's mistake. We were caught in the middle between 2 controllers.

Original NASA ASRS Text

Title: ACR FLC RECEIVED AN UNCONSTRUCTIVE RESPONSE FROM APCH CTLR WHEN THEY RELATED THAT THEY COULD NOT COMPLY WITH A XING RESTR CLRNC.

Narrative: AT THE ABOVE LOCATION, ZTL TOLD US TO CROSS ERLIN AT 13000 FT AND 250 KTS. I IMMEDIATELY BEGAN A RAPID DSCNT FROM FL240 AT 320 KTS IN ORDER TO SLOW TO 250 KTS AND BE AT 13000 FT IN 30 MI. SHORTLY AFTER THIS CLRNC, WE WERE ASKED IF WE COULD SLOW TO 270 KTS IMMEDIATELY AND STILL MAKE THE RESTRS. WE REPLIED 'NEGATIVE,' CTR THEN GAVE US A 30 DEG L TURN AND TOLD US TO SLOW TO 270 KTS. AS WE APCHED RMG HE GAVE US A 60 DEG R TURN AND AGAIN TOLD US TO CROSS ERLIN AT 13000 FT AND 250 KTS, AND HE GAVE US A FREQ CHANGE TO ATL APCH. WHEN WE COULD GET THROUGH ON THE NEW FREQ, WE INFORMED THE APCH CTLR THAT WE COULD NOT MAKE THE RESTR. HIS RESPONSE WAS 'ROGER.' WE SAID, 'UNDERSTAND THE RESTR IS REMOVED.'HE SAID, 'NO, THAT'S NOT MY AIRSPACE, I'M JUST ACKNOWLEDGING THAT YOU CAN'T MAKE THE RESTR.' AT THIS TIME WE WERE OVER ERLIN INTXN AT 14000 FT, 270 KTS. I WOULD POINT OUT THAT WE WERE THE 4TH OR 5TH ACFT IN SUCCESSION WHO HAD TOLD THE CTR CTLR THAT WE COULD NOT MAKE AN ERLIN RESTR BECAUSE HE HAD WAITED TOO LATE TO ISSUE A DSCNT CLRNC. IT APPEARED FROM THE TONE OF VOICE ON THE PART OF THE APCH CTLR THAT HE WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THE WAY ACFT WERE BEING HANDED OFF TO HIM BY ZTL. WE WONDERED WHY WE WERE TALKING TO THE CTLR IF WE WERE NOT IN HIS AIRSPACE. AFTER THE 4TH OR 5TH ACFT, YOU WOULD HOPE THAT THE CTR CTLR WOULD REALIZE HE WAS GIVING UNREALISTIC DSCNT CLRNCS. IT APPEARS THAT SUCH CLRNCS ARE REGULARLY GIVEN ON THE PART OF CTLRS TO 'FILL A SQUARE' AND COVER THEMSELVES WITHOUT REGARD TO THE PRACTICALITY OF THE CLRNC. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 308084: INSPITE OF OUR BEST EFFORTS WE BUSTED THE RESTR BY ABOUT 1000 FT, BUT DUE TO HVY TFC ON THE FREQ WE WERE UNABLE TO PURSUE THE PROB AND WE CONTINUED THE APCH. IT APPEARED FROM THE TONE OF VOICE BEING USED BY APCH CTL THAT HE HAD BEEN HANDED SEVERAL ACFT HE CONSIDERED MISHANDLED BY ATC ZTL AND HE WASN'T GOING TO HELP RESOLVE SOMEONE ELSE'S MISTAKE. WE WERE CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE BTWN 2 CTLRS.

Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.

Air carrier flight crew received an unconstructive response from approach controller when they related that they could not comply with a crossing restr clearance.