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B767 on north atlantic route at FL350 with new minimum altitude separation got a TCASII TA on another B767 at FL340 on same route. Reporter learns from contact with other aircraft that they also have TA and are flying at mach pt 80. Reporter requests and receives approval for mach pt 81. Advisories stopped when reporter's aircraft got ahead of the other aircraft. Reported that the advisories lasted for about 30 mins. Reporter stated the other aircraft was going to or already had turned off the TCASII to keep from getting the constant advisories.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 366583 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199704 |
| Day | Wed |
| Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | atc facility : yyr |
| State Reference | NF |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 34000 msl bound upper : 35000 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | artcc : czqm |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B767-300 and 300 ER |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | Other Other |
| Flight Phase | cruise other |
| Route In Use | enroute : atlantic |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B767 Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | Other Other |
| Flight Phase | cruise other |
| Route In Use | enroute : atlantic |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 8000 flight time type : 1500 |
| ASRS Report | 366583 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | other anomaly other |
| Independent Detector | aircraft equipment other aircraft equipment : unspecified |
| Resolutory Action | other |
| Consequence | Other |
| Supplementary | |
| Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
| Air Traffic Incident | other |
Narrative:
New minimum altitude separation on north atlantic rtes and TCASII routing: steam oystr 55N 050W 57N 040W 58N 030W 57N 020W 56N 010W mac. FL350 mach .80 B767-300. Approximately 12 mins prior to steam, observed another aircraft approaching steam from a different angle (10 degrees or so), below our altitude. Approximately 10 mins prior to steam, received verbal 'traffic' and yellow TCASII TA. Checked our altitude at FL350. TCASII had traffic at FL340. Talked to other aircraft (another B767) and found he had same routing and assigned mach .80. Also, he too was receiving TCASII TA. After approximately 15 mins of continuous yellow TA and occasional verbal 'traffic,' requested and received clearance to make crossing at mach .81. Once we got ahead of other B767, the TCASII TA verbal and yellow advisories stopped. Total time of continuous TCASII TA yellow was approximately 30 mins. While talking to other aircraft, he indicated that he was going to or already had turned off his TCASII to keep from getting constant advisories. A potential problem exists: somebody is going to turn off this safety equipment and jeopardize his and other aircraft. Also, has anyone seriously thought about what happens when someone gets an RA? The potential exists for a lot of aircraft to be scattered throughout a lot of altitudes out there. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter indicated a report to the union and to the company about the TCASII TA's. Reporter stated he had heard that there will be software change next yr to take care of the problem. Reporter said he was scared that pilots might turn off their TCASII and indicated this could be more of a problem for aircraft avoidance. Reporter has not had the problem recur but has talked to others that have.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: B767 ON NORTH ATLANTIC RTE AT FL350 WITH NEW MINIMUM ALT SEPARATION GOT A TCASII TA ON ANOTHER B767 AT FL340 ON SAME RTE. RPTR LEARNS FROM CONTACT WITH OTHER ACFT THAT THEY ALSO HAVE TA AND ARE FLYING AT MACH PT 80. RPTR REQUESTS AND RECEIVES APPROVAL FOR MACH PT 81. ADVISORIES STOPPED WHEN RPTR'S ACFT GOT AHEAD OF THE OTHER ACFT. RPTED THAT THE ADVISORIES LASTED FOR ABOUT 30 MINS. RPTR STATED THE OTHER ACFT WAS GOING TO OR ALREADY HAD TURNED OFF THE TCASII TO KEEP FROM GETTING THE CONSTANT ADVISORIES.
Narrative: NEW MINIMUM ALT SEPARATION ON NORTH ATLANTIC RTES AND TCASII ROUTING: STEAM OYSTR 55N 050W 57N 040W 58N 030W 57N 020W 56N 010W MAC. FL350 MACH .80 B767-300. APPROX 12 MINS PRIOR TO STEAM, OBSERVED ANOTHER ACFT APCHING STEAM FROM A DIFFERENT ANGLE (10 DEGS OR SO), BELOW OUR ALT. APPROX 10 MINS PRIOR TO STEAM, RECEIVED VERBAL 'TFC' AND YELLOW TCASII TA. CHKED OUR ALT AT FL350. TCASII HAD TFC AT FL340. TALKED TO OTHER ACFT (ANOTHER B767) AND FOUND HE HAD SAME ROUTING AND ASSIGNED MACH .80. ALSO, HE TOO WAS RECEIVING TCASII TA. AFTER APPROX 15 MINS OF CONTINUOUS YELLOW TA AND OCCASIONAL VERBAL 'TFC,' REQUESTED AND RECEIVED CLRNC TO MAKE XING AT MACH .81. ONCE WE GOT AHEAD OF OTHER B767, THE TCASII TA VERBAL AND YELLOW ADVISORIES STOPPED. TOTAL TIME OF CONTINUOUS TCASII TA YELLOW WAS APPROX 30 MINS. WHILE TALKING TO OTHER ACFT, HE INDICATED THAT HE WAS GOING TO OR ALREADY HAD TURNED OFF HIS TCASII TO KEEP FROM GETTING CONSTANT ADVISORIES. A POTENTIAL PROB EXISTS: SOMEBODY IS GOING TO TURN OFF THIS SAFETY EQUIP AND JEOPARDIZE HIS AND OTHER ACFT. ALSO, HAS ANYONE SERIOUSLY THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SOMEONE GETS AN RA? THE POTENTIAL EXISTS FOR A LOT OF ACFT TO BE SCATTERED THROUGHOUT A LOT OF ALTS OUT THERE. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR INDICATED A RPT TO THE UNION AND TO THE COMPANY ABOUT THE TCASII TA'S. RPTR STATED HE HAD HEARD THAT THERE WILL BE SOFTWARE CHANGE NEXT YR TO TAKE CARE OF THE PROB. RPTR SAID HE WAS SCARED THAT PLTS MIGHT TURN OFF THEIR TCASII AND INDICATED THIS COULD BE MORE OF A PROB FOR ACFT AVOIDANCE. RPTR HAS NOT HAD THE PROB RECUR BUT HAS TALKED TO OTHERS THAT HAVE.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.