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37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
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Light transport departure lax was gaining on previous departure traffic and was being vectored off course for climb. PIC of air carrier X requested a VFR climb. The controller wanted him to accept a VFR on top. Some confusion over clearance requested of ATC and the departure controller's attitude and perception as to what the commuter air carrier could accept.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 372680 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199706 |
| Day | Sun |
| Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | atc facility : vtu airport : lax |
| State Reference | CA |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 7000 msl bound upper : 10500 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | Commercial Fixed Wing |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | Other |
| Flight Phase | climbout : intermediate altitude |
| Route In Use | departure other enroute : on vectors enroute airway : lax enroute other |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Make Model Name | Any Unknown or Unlisted Aircraft Manufacturer |
| Operating Under FAR Part | other : unknown |
| Flight Phase | climbout : intermediate altitude |
| Route In Use | departure other |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 110 flight time total : 8500 flight time type : 3500 |
| ASRS Report | 372680 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : instrument |
| ASRS Report | 372937 |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | non adherence : published procedure non adherence : far other anomaly other |
| Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | other |
| Consequence | Other |
| Supplementary | |
| Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
| Air Traffic Incident | other |
Narrative:
Multiple aircraft were launching from lax. We were told to follow an airplane that was climbing at 140 KTS. ATC then gave us a vector 90 degrees off our course. I asked if a 'VFR climb would help get us back on course.' the controller said it would, but cleared us for VFR on top. I had asked for a VFR climb, not VFR on top, which we can't do. Frequency congestion, a hostile controller attitude, and a desire not to upset the controller even more, prevented a timely resolution to the situation. A better understanding of the difference between VFR climb and VFR on top by ATC is in order. Supplemental information from acn 372937: the controller cleared us to climb VFR to maintain 10000 ft. Before our leveloff the controller came back and said to maintain VFR on top at 10500 ft which we didn't really feel comfortable with. We asked for a hard altitude of 12000 ft and the controller declined.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: LTT DEP LAX WAS GAINING ON PREVIOUS DEP TFC AND WAS BEING VECTORED OFF COURSE FOR CLB. PIC OF ACR X REQUESTED A VFR CLB. THE CTLR WANTED HIM TO ACCEPT A VFR ON TOP. SOME CONFUSION OVER CLRNC REQUESTED OF ATC AND THE DEP CTLR'S ATTITUDE AND PERCEPTION AS TO WHAT THE COMMUTER ACR COULD ACCEPT.
Narrative: MULTIPLE ACFT WERE LAUNCHING FROM LAX. WE WERE TOLD TO FOLLOW AN AIRPLANE THAT WAS CLBING AT 140 KTS. ATC THEN GAVE US A VECTOR 90 DEGS OFF OUR COURSE. I ASKED IF A 'VFR CLB WOULD HELP GET US BACK ON COURSE.' THE CTLR SAID IT WOULD, BUT CLRED US FOR VFR ON TOP. I HAD ASKED FOR A VFR CLB, NOT VFR ON TOP, WHICH WE CAN'T DO. FREQ CONGESTION, A HOSTILE CTLR ATTITUDE, AND A DESIRE NOT TO UPSET THE CTLR EVEN MORE, PREVENTED A TIMELY RESOLUTION TO THE SIT. A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF THE DIFFERENCE BTWN VFR CLB AND VFR ON TOP BY ATC IS IN ORDER. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 372937: THE CTLR CLRED US TO CLB VFR TO MAINTAIN 10000 FT. BEFORE OUR LEVELOFF THE CTLR CAME BACK AND SAID TO MAINTAIN VFR ON TOP AT 10500 FT WHICH WE DIDN'T REALLY FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH. WE ASKED FOR A HARD ALT OF 12000 FT AND THE CTLR DECLINED.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.