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MD80 captain asks for a delay in takeoff behind a departing B747-400. He said he didn't have the required separation of 5 mi or 2 mins. Controller argued with him and the delay in takeoff provided the necessary 5 mi.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 381300 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199709 |
| Day | Mon |
| Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | airport : lax |
| State Reference | CA |
| Altitude | agl bound lower : 0 agl bound upper : 0 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | MD-80 Super 80 |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | Other |
| Flight Phase | ground : holding |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B747-400 |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | Other Other |
| Flight Phase | climbout : initial climbout : takeoff |
| Route In Use | departure other departure sid : sid |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| ASRS Report | 381300 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : commercial pilot : instrument |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | inflight encounter other non adherence : clearance non adherence : far non adherence : published procedure non adherence : required legal separation |
| Independent Detector | aircraft equipment other aircraft equipment : unspecified other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | other |
| Consequence | Other |
| Supplementary | |
| Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
| Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation Operational Deviation |
| Situations | |
| ATC Facility | procedure or policy : unspecified |
Narrative:
Location: on runway 25R lax. Lax tower cleared us for takeoff following a B747-400 with only 3 mi separation. I asked for 30 seconds more time. He stated that 'you should have asked for more time prior to taking the runway.' we stated that we do not have the wake turbulence separation needed. The controller said that we had the separation and that it was '8 mi' when in fact it was approximately 3 mi visually and with TCASII by the time we questioned this, we had in fact the required separation. This particular B747-400 was very heavy and utilized almost all of the runway in its departure roll. He attempted to clear us for takeoff without the required 5 mi separation or 2 min separation.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: MD80 CAPT ASKS FOR A DELAY IN TKOF BEHIND A DEPARTING B747-400. HE SAID HE DIDN'T HAVE THE REQUIRED SEPARATION OF 5 MI OR 2 MINS. CTLR ARGUED WITH HIM AND THE DELAY IN TKOF PROVIDED THE NECESSARY 5 MI.
Narrative: LOCATION: ON RWY 25R LAX. LAX TWR CLRED US FOR TKOF FOLLOWING A B747-400 WITH ONLY 3 MI SEPARATION. I ASKED FOR 30 SECONDS MORE TIME. HE STATED THAT 'YOU SHOULD HAVE ASKED FOR MORE TIME PRIOR TO TAKING THE RWY.' WE STATED THAT WE DO NOT HAVE THE WAKE TURB SEPARATION NEEDED. THE CTLR SAID THAT WE HAD THE SEPARATION AND THAT IT WAS '8 MI' WHEN IN FACT IT WAS APPROX 3 MI VISUALLY AND WITH TCASII BY THE TIME WE QUESTIONED THIS, WE HAD IN FACT THE REQUIRED SEPARATION. THIS PARTICULAR B747-400 WAS VERY HVY AND UTILIZED ALMOST ALL OF THE RWY IN ITS DEP ROLL. HE ATTEMPTED TO CLR US FOR TKOF WITHOUT THE REQUIRED 5 MI SEPARATION OR 2 MIN SEPARATION.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.