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An MD80 taxies for takeoff at lax, only to find the flight crew had crossed some hold short lines that were not marked by any signs, nor were there any pubs that had them marked.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 419435 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199811 |
| Day | Tue |
| Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | atc facility : lax airport : lax |
| State Reference | CA |
| Altitude | agl bound lower : 0 agl bound upper : 0 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | MD-80 Series (DC-9-80) Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Flight Phase | ground other : taxi |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 6000 flight time type : 500 |
| ASRS Report | 419435 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : atp |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | non adherence : clearance other anomaly other other anomaly other |
| Independent Detector | other controllera |
| Resolutory Action | none taken : detected after the fact |
| Consequence | Other |
| Supplementary | |
| Primary Problem | Airport |
| Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
| Situations | |
| Airport | other physical facility |
Narrative:
Lax has 2 sets of hold lines for runway 24L&right. However, the first set is not the usually solid with dashed lines. They are just dashed lines with no marking to let you know to stop there. There was no traffic in front of us and we were unaware of the lax first hold line. Tower had not asked us to hold there. We were both unfamiliar with these hold lines. Tower informed us that we had crossed the hold line and we replied that we had not, but we were looking at apparently the second set of lines. Another tower controller came on and did not say anything about it and cleared us for takeoff. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter stated that they never saw any usual hold short lines. They saw a dashed line only. They expected to see a solid line next to some dashed lines. The flight crew were unable to clarify exactly where the lines were located. The flight crew would like to see something to mark better where the hold short lines are located. They don't appear on any airport charts or other taxi pages. Other controller never clarified the exact location. They were attempting to hold short of runway 24L at the time of incursion.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: AN MD80 TAXIES FOR TKOF AT LAX, ONLY TO FIND THE FLC HAD CROSSED SOME HOLD SHORT LINES THAT WERE NOT MARKED BY ANY SIGNS, NOR WERE THERE ANY PUBS THAT HAD THEM MARKED.
Narrative: LAX HAS 2 SETS OF HOLD LINES FOR RWY 24L&R. HOWEVER, THE FIRST SET IS NOT THE USUALLY SOLID WITH DASHED LINES. THEY ARE JUST DASHED LINES WITH NO MARKING TO LET YOU KNOW TO STOP THERE. THERE WAS NO TFC IN FRONT OF US AND WE WERE UNAWARE OF THE LAX FIRST HOLD LINE. TWR HAD NOT ASKED US TO HOLD THERE. WE WERE BOTH UNFAMILIAR WITH THESE HOLD LINES. TWR INFORMED US THAT WE HAD CROSSED THE HOLD LINE AND WE REPLIED THAT WE HAD NOT, BUT WE WERE LOOKING AT APPARENTLY THE SECOND SET OF LINES. ANOTHER TWR CTLR CAME ON AND DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT AND CLRED US FOR TKOF. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR STATED THAT THEY NEVER SAW ANY USUAL HOLD SHORT LINES. THEY SAW A DASHED LINE ONLY. THEY EXPECTED TO SEE A SOLID LINE NEXT TO SOME DASHED LINES. THE FLC WERE UNABLE TO CLARIFY EXACTLY WHERE THE LINES WERE LOCATED. THE FLC WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOMETHING TO MARK BETTER WHERE THE HOLD SHORT LINES ARE LOCATED. THEY DON'T APPEAR ON ANY ARPT CHARTS OR OTHER TAXI PAGES. OTHER CTLR NEVER CLARIFIED THE EXACT LOCATION. THEY WERE ATTEMPTING TO HOLD SHORT OF RWY 24L AT THE TIME OF INCURSION.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.