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Large transport air carrier flight crew PIC concerned with N90 departure controller vector towards VFR traffic with only 500 ft vertical separation. VFR class B cessna inadvertently descends causing TCASII RA climb with simultaneous ATC climb clearance. PIC alleges a previous problem with N90 involving similar situation.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 422045 |
| Time | |
| Date | 199812 |
| Day | Fri |
| Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | atc facility : jfk airport : n90 |
| State Reference | NY |
| Altitude | msl bound lower : 4000 msl bound upper : 4000 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Daylight |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | Commercial Fixed Wing |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | Other |
| Flight Phase | cruise other cruise other |
| Route In Use | departure other enroute : on vectors |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Operator | general aviation : personal |
| Make Model Name | Cessna Single Piston Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | other : unknown |
| Flight Phase | cruise other |
| Flight Plan | VFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 180 flight time total : 28200 flight time type : 20000 |
| ASRS Report | 422045 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | altitude deviation : excursion from assigned altitude conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : far other anomaly other |
| Independent Detector | aircraft equipment other aircraft equipment : unspecified other controllera other flight crewa |
| Consequence | Other |
| Supplementary | |
| Air Traffic Incident | other |
Narrative:
After takeoff from jfk, we (aircraft X) were assigned 4000 ft MSL rather than the published 5000 ft. On departure control, during vectors to the jfk 156 degree radial, we were advised of a cessna (aircraft Y) at 4500 ft in class B airspace just offshore south of jfk. The vector took us directly at the cessna with 500 ft clearance. Before sighting the cessna, I heard the controller inquire from the cessna his altitude. Radar showed him at 4000 ft. I saw the cessna and advised the controller. He immediately cleared us to 13000 ft, of course through the cessna's airspace. Everybody's legal and everybody's stupid. We always get a TCASII RA in that situation. The first officer flying initially attempted to follow the TCASII which would have collided with the cessna because of timing. 2 important points: 1) why do controllers vector 2 aircraft to within 500 ft vertical separation when there was a lot of airspace available at this time of day near jfk? 2) when we respond to a TCASII RA, if anybody was out of their seat belts, namely flight attendants, they most likely will be hurt. This isn't the first NASA report on this subject, both incidents departing a new york airport.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: LGT ACR FLC PIC CONCERNED WITH N90 DEP CTLR VECTOR TOWARDS VFR TFC WITH ONLY 500 FT VERT SEPARATION. VFR CLASS B CESSNA INADVERTENTLY DSNDS CAUSING TCASII RA CLB WITH SIMULTANEOUS ATC CLB CLRNC. PIC ALLEGES A PREVIOUS PROB WITH N90 INVOLVING SIMILAR SIT.
Narrative: AFTER TKOF FROM JFK, WE (ACFT X) WERE ASSIGNED 4000 FT MSL RATHER THAN THE PUBLISHED 5000 FT. ON DEP CTL, DURING VECTORS TO THE JFK 156 DEG RADIAL, WE WERE ADVISED OF A CESSNA (ACFT Y) AT 4500 FT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE JUST OFFSHORE S OF JFK. THE VECTOR TOOK US DIRECTLY AT THE CESSNA WITH 500 FT CLRNC. BEFORE SIGHTING THE CESSNA, I HEARD THE CTLR INQUIRE FROM THE CESSNA HIS ALT. RADAR SHOWED HIM AT 4000 FT. I SAW THE CESSNA AND ADVISED THE CTLR. HE IMMEDIATELY CLRED US TO 13000 FT, OF COURSE THROUGH THE CESSNA'S AIRSPACE. EVERYBODY'S LEGAL AND EVERYBODY'S STUPID. WE ALWAYS GET A TCASII RA IN THAT SIT. THE FO FLYING INITIALLY ATTEMPTED TO FOLLOW THE TCASII WHICH WOULD HAVE COLLIDED WITH THE CESSNA BECAUSE OF TIMING. 2 IMPORTANT POINTS: 1) WHY DO CTLRS VECTOR 2 ACFT TO WITHIN 500 FT VERT SEPARATION WHEN THERE WAS A LOT OF AIRSPACE AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME OF DAY NEAR JFK? 2) WHEN WE RESPOND TO A TCASII RA, IF ANYBODY WAS OUT OF THEIR SEAT BELTS, NAMELY FLT ATTENDANTS, THEY MOST LIKELY WILL BE HURT. THIS ISN'T THE FIRST NASA RPT ON THIS SUBJECT, BOTH INCIDENTS DEPARTING A NEW YORK ARPT.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.