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B727 crew on approach into den behind a B757 believe they were not provided proper separation by the controller.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 462390 |
| Time | |
| Date | 200001 |
| Day | Sun |
| Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | airport : den.airport |
| State Reference | CO |
| Altitude | agl single value : 2000 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Dusk |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : d01.tracon |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B727 Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Navigation In Use | ils localizer & glide slope : 16 |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach |
| Route In Use | approach : visual |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Aircraft 2 | |
| Controlling Facilities | tracon : d01.tracon |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B757 Undifferentiated or Other Model |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Flight Phase | descent : approach |
| Route In Use | approach : visual |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Qualification | pilot : instrument pilot : flight engineer pilot : commercial pilot : cfi pilot : atp pilot : multi engine |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 6000 flight time type : 550 |
| ASRS Report | 462390 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 375 flight time total : 13000 flight time type : 8000 |
| ASRS Report | 462288 |
| Events | |
| Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : published procedure |
| Independent Detector | other controllera other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance flight crew : executed go around |
| Miss Distance | horizontal : 16800 vertical : 800 |
| Supplementary | |
| Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance ATC Human Performance |
| Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Narrative:
Due to ATC vectors, we were placed at 3 NM behind a B757 on final (we called the traffic in sight and were cleared the visual approach) and also told to maintain 170 KTS. We feel this placed us too close to the preceding B757 and slowed to 140 KTS. We told ATC we were slowing. They asked us if we could do 150 KTS (now we were just inside 3 NM to the B757) and we said negative. The controller broke us out in a right 360 degree race track pattern, then proceeded to jam us behind a BAE146 at 3 mi and told us to maintain 170 KTS to the marker as we were co-speed. However, upon switching to tower (and observing TCASII), tower informed us we had 60 KTS closure on the BAE146. We immediately slowed and configured and maintained safe separation from the BAE146 (we were concerned, but not as concerned as that amount of spacing from a B757 on the previous approach). We feel we were jammed into a loss of safe separation (less than 4 NM) behind the B757 and then given 'punishment' vectors for not complying with the speed and jamming us further, and then brought around and jammed behind the BAE146 and erroneously told we were co-speed, producing a high closure rate.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: B727 CREW ON APCH INTO DEN BEHIND A B757 BELIEVE THEY WERE NOT PROVIDED PROPER SEPARATION BY THE CTLR.
Narrative: DUE TO ATC VECTORS, WE WERE PLACED AT 3 NM BEHIND A B757 ON FINAL (WE CALLED THE TFC IN SIGHT AND WERE CLRED THE VISUAL APCH) AND ALSO TOLD TO MAINTAIN 170 KTS. WE FEEL THIS PLACED US TOO CLOSE TO THE PRECEDING B757 AND SLOWED TO 140 KTS. WE TOLD ATC WE WERE SLOWING. THEY ASKED US IF WE COULD DO 150 KTS (NOW WE WERE JUST INSIDE 3 NM TO THE B757) AND WE SAID NEGATIVE. THE CTLR BROKE US OUT IN A R 360 DEG RACE TRACK PATTERN, THEN PROCEEDED TO JAM US BEHIND A BAE146 AT 3 MI AND TOLD US TO MAINTAIN 170 KTS TO THE MARKER AS WE WERE CO-SPD. HOWEVER, UPON SWITCHING TO TWR (AND OBSERVING TCASII), TWR INFORMED US WE HAD 60 KTS CLOSURE ON THE BAE146. WE IMMEDIATELY SLOWED AND CONFIGURED AND MAINTAINED SAFE SEPARATION FROM THE BAE146 (WE WERE CONCERNED, BUT NOT AS CONCERNED AS THAT AMOUNT OF SPACING FROM A B757 ON THE PREVIOUS APCH). WE FEEL WE WERE JAMMED INTO A LOSS OF SAFE SEPARATION (LESS THAN 4 NM) BEHIND THE B757 AND THEN GIVEN 'PUNISHMENT' VECTORS FOR NOT COMPLYING WITH THE SPD AND JAMMING US FURTHER, AND THEN BROUGHT AROUND AND JAMMED BEHIND THE BAE146 AND ERRONEOUSLY TOLD WE WERE CO-SPD, PRODUCING A HIGH CLOSURE RATE.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.