37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 472304 |
Time | |
Date | 200005 |
Day | Mon |
Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
Place | |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 7000 msl bound upper : 8000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : sct.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Medium Large Transport, Low Wing, 2 Turbojet Eng |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | descent : intermediate altitude |
Route In Use | arrival : on vectors arrival star : eastside |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp pilot : flight engineer |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 225 flight time total : 9000 flight time type : 1200 |
ASRS Report | 472304 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : crossing restriction not met altitude deviation : overshoot non adherence : clearance non adherence : published procedure other anomaly other anomaly other |
Independent Detector | other controllera |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued advisory controller : issued new clearance none taken : detected after the fact |
Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew other |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance Airspace Structure |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
Narrative:
During descent to sna, on the east side 3 arrival, we were cleared direct bands and descend to 14000 ft MSL. Subsequently we were cleared direct to dejay intersection. The captain asked if we were cleared on the profile, and my response was 'I think so, but would you like me to ask?' he said 'no, I think we were,' and my response was 'I don't mind, if you want I'll ask.' the captain said no thanks and started descending to 7000 ft MSL and slowing to 190 KIAS by kayoh intersection. After reaching 7000 ft and 190 KIAS, the socal controller asked what our airspeed was. I told him 190 KIAS and he asked if we could push it to 230 KIAS. We complied. Then we were given a number to call on the ground. Then we were told to expect a possible 'pilot deviation.' the rest of the approach and landing was uneventful. The captain called on the landline. As the captain briefed to me, socal approach's concern was why we did not follow our clearance to 8000 ft. He told socal that we never received clearance to 8000 ft. Socal said there were no other deviations and no possible conflicts but to know that most clrncs will be to 8000 ft MSL, not what is on the STAR. The captain assured the controllers that he would pass this information on to the pilot group when we returned to ewr. My correction action: if I am unsure of a clearance I will ask the controller for clarification no matter how sure the captain is of the proper clearance. This is proper CRM technique. If I had 'asked the question' this would not have occurred.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: AN ACR FLT OVERSHOOTS THE ASSIGNED ALT DURING AN 'EAST SIDE' STAR ARR INTO SNA, CA.
Narrative: DURING DSCNT TO SNA, ON THE E SIDE 3 ARR, WE WERE CLRED DIRECT BANDS AND DSND TO 14000 FT MSL. SUBSEQUENTLY WE WERE CLRED DIRECT TO DEJAY INTXN. THE CAPT ASKED IF WE WERE CLRED ON THE PROFILE, AND MY RESPONSE WAS 'I THINK SO, BUT WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO ASK?' HE SAID 'NO, I THINK WE WERE,' AND MY RESPONSE WAS 'I DON'T MIND, IF YOU WANT I'LL ASK.' THE CAPT SAID NO THANKS AND STARTED DSNDING TO 7000 FT MSL AND SLOWING TO 190 KIAS BY KAYOH INTXN. AFTER REACHING 7000 FT AND 190 KIAS, THE SOCAL CTLR ASKED WHAT OUR AIRSPD WAS. I TOLD HIM 190 KIAS AND HE ASKED IF WE COULD PUSH IT TO 230 KIAS. WE COMPLIED. THEN WE WERE GIVEN A NUMBER TO CALL ON THE GND. THEN WE WERE TOLD TO EXPECT A POSSIBLE 'PLTDEV.' THE REST OF THE APCH AND LNDG WAS UNEVENTFUL. THE CAPT CALLED ON THE LANDLINE. AS THE CAPT BRIEFED TO ME, SOCAL APCH'S CONCERN WAS WHY WE DID NOT FOLLOW OUR CLRNC TO 8000 FT. HE TOLD SOCAL THAT WE NEVER RECEIVED CLRNC TO 8000 FT. SOCAL SAID THERE WERE NO OTHER DEVS AND NO POSSIBLE CONFLICTS BUT TO KNOW THAT MOST CLRNCS WILL BE TO 8000 FT MSL, NOT WHAT IS ON THE STAR. THE CAPT ASSURED THE CTLRS THAT HE WOULD PASS THIS INFO ON TO THE PLT GROUP WHEN WE RETURNED TO EWR. MY CORRECTION ACTION: IF I AM UNSURE OF A CLRNC I WILL ASK THE CTLR FOR CLARIFICATION NO MATTER HOW SURE THE CAPT IS OF THE PROPER CLRNC. THIS IS PROPER CRM TECHNIQUE. IF I HAD 'ASKED THE QUESTION' THIS WOULD NOT HAVE OCCURRED.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.