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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 523449 |
Time | |
Date | 200108 |
Day | Fri |
Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | navaid : stl.vortac |
State Reference | MO |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 22000 msl bound upper : 23000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | IMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | artcc : zkc.artcc tower : sjc.tower |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | B737-300 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | other other vortac |
Flight Phase | climbout : intermediate altitude |
Route In Use | departure : other published ifr departure departure other |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 200 flight time total : 9000 flight time type : 3400 |
ASRS Report | 523449 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 210 flight time total : 2000 flight time type : 7500 |
ASRS Report | 523447 |
Events | |
Anomaly | conflict : airborne less severe non adherence : published procedure other spatial deviation |
Independent Detector | atc equipment other atc equipment : radar other controllera other flight crewa other flight crewb |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued advisory controller : issued new clearance other |
Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew other |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | ATC Human Performance Flight Crew Human Performance |
Primary Problem | ATC Human Performance |
Narrative:
Departed stl runway 30L. Prior to 500 ft AGL, tower gave us new heading of 210 degrees. Contacted departure. This heading put us east of the stl 214 degree radial of the departure. Multiple altitude changes. Contacted ZKC. He gave us 230 degrees to join lindy 2 maples transition. I programmed LNAV to intercept departure. Captain was backing up departure. On stl VOR (17.4 214 degree radial) LNAV centered and VOR centered aircraft joined. Absolutely no overshoot west of course. Given frequency change to ZKC 125.5. She immediately told us to turn 15 degrees left to join the radial because we were too close to company traffic. She said we were 5 mi west of course. We advised her we were on course as indicated by both VOR and LNAV. She aggressively disagreed with us. A few mins passed whereby our heading and course never changed from our initial heading we joined by 215 degrees. She then advised us we were now on course and gave a frequency change. Captain then advised her 'for the record, our heading or course has not changed 1 degree since the initial intercept prior to your frequency.' (somehow without a heading change we magically corrected 5 mi west of course to right on.) she replied 'for the record, our heading had changed and you are back on course.' very adamant of the fact we were off course and now corrected. This did not happen. Our heading never changed and we never overshot the departure radial. She manufactured the event for some reason unknown to us. We never saw traffic on TCASII and switched frequency without any further discussion. I would like to know the reason this discussion took place since we were never west of course. Supplemental information from acn 523447: I am perplexed as to the controller advising us that we were 5 mi west of course when we showed normal navigation on course on the lindy 2, yet a few mins later the controller advises we were now on course. Our heading and track never changed during the alleged off course deviation. When controllers use the term (for the record) it makes pilots very alert. From time-to-time, we overshoot radials, but this was not the case. We had 2 separate navigation system operating and both confirmed our position on the departure.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: ZKC CTLR CHALLENGES B737 FLC AS 'OFF COURSE.' FLC TAKES NO ACTION, STATING THEIR EQUIP SHOWS THEM 'ON COURSE.'
Narrative: DEPARTED STL RWY 30L. PRIOR TO 500 FT AGL, TWR GAVE US NEW HDG OF 210 DEGS. CONTACTED DEP. THIS HDG PUT US E OF THE STL 214 DEG RADIAL OF THE DEP. MULTIPLE ALT CHANGES. CONTACTED ZKC. HE GAVE US 230 DEGS TO JOIN LINDY 2 MAPLES TRANSITION. I PROGRAMMED LNAV TO INTERCEPT DEP. CAPT WAS BACKING UP DEP. ON STL VOR (17.4 214 DEG RADIAL) LNAV CTRED AND VOR CTRED ACFT JOINED. ABSOLUTELY NO OVERSHOOT W OF COURSE. GIVEN FREQ CHANGE TO ZKC 125.5. SHE IMMEDIATELY TOLD US TO TURN 15 DEGS L TO JOIN THE RADIAL BECAUSE WE WERE TOO CLOSE TO COMPANY TFC. SHE SAID WE WERE 5 MI W OF COURSE. WE ADVISED HER WE WERE ON COURSE AS INDICATED BY BOTH VOR AND LNAV. SHE AGGRESSIVELY DISAGREED WITH US. A FEW MINS PASSED WHEREBY OUR HDG AND COURSE NEVER CHANGED FROM OUR INITIAL HDG WE JOINED BY 215 DEGS. SHE THEN ADVISED US WE WERE NOW ON COURSE AND GAVE A FREQ CHANGE. CAPT THEN ADVISED HER 'FOR THE RECORD, OUR HDG OR COURSE HAS NOT CHANGED 1 DEG SINCE THE INITIAL INTERCEPT PRIOR TO YOUR FREQ.' (SOMEHOW WITHOUT A HDG CHANGE WE MAGICALLY CORRECTED 5 MI W OF COURSE TO RIGHT ON.) SHE REPLIED 'FOR THE RECORD, OUR HDG HAD CHANGED AND YOU ARE BACK ON COURSE.' VERY ADAMANT OF THE FACT WE WERE OFF COURSE AND NOW CORRECTED. THIS DID NOT HAPPEN. OUR HDG NEVER CHANGED AND WE NEVER OVERSHOT THE DEP RADIAL. SHE MANUFACTURED THE EVENT FOR SOME REASON UNKNOWN TO US. WE NEVER SAW TFC ON TCASII AND SWITCHED FREQ WITHOUT ANY FURTHER DISCUSSION. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE REASON THIS DISCUSSION TOOK PLACE SINCE WE WERE NEVER W OF COURSE. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 523447: I AM PERPLEXED AS TO THE CTLR ADVISING US THAT WE WERE 5 MI W OF COURSE WHEN WE SHOWED NORMAL NAV ON COURSE ON THE LINDY 2, YET A FEW MINS LATER THE CTLR ADVISES WE WERE NOW ON COURSE. OUR HDG AND TRACK NEVER CHANGED DURING THE ALLEGED OFF COURSE DEV. WHEN CTLRS USE THE TERM (FOR THE RECORD) IT MAKES PLTS VERY ALERT. FROM TIME-TO-TIME, WE OVERSHOOT RADIALS, BUT THIS WAS NOT THE CASE. WE HAD 2 SEPARATE NAV SYS OPERATING AND BOTH CONFIRMED OUR POS ON THE DEP.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.