37000 Feet | Browse and search NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System |
|
Attributes | |
ACN | 561337 |
Time | |
Date | 200209 |
Day | Fri |
Local Time Of Day | 1201 To 1800 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | navaid : las.vortac |
State Reference | NV |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 11200 msl bound upper : 12000 |
Environment | |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | artcc : zla.artcc tracon : l30.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | MD-80 Series (DC-9-80) Undifferentiated or Other Model |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | other |
Flight Phase | descent : vacating altitude |
Route In Use | arrival star : ksino one |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : commercial |
ASRS Report | 561337 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Events | |
Anomaly | altitude deviation : excursion from assigned altitude non adherence : clearance non adherence : required legal separation non adherence : published procedure |
Independent Detector | other controllera other controllerb |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance flight crew : returned to assigned altitude |
Consequence | faa : reviewed incident with flight crew faa : investigated |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Chart Or Publication Flight Crew Human Performance ATC Human Performance |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
Narrative:
We were cleared to bethl -- a fix on the ksino 1 arrival -- and then the ksino 1 arrival. At luxor, we departed 12000 ft for the 'at or above' 10000 ft altitude restr at miraj. Since this was the first time I had seen an RNAV arrival, I was surprised when the captain started out of 12000 ft on his own. He then told me that once you are cleared for an RNAV arrival, you are also cleared to descend as necessary to meet the published altitude on the arrival. When I called ZLA that we were leaving 12000 ft, they were upset that we had departed 12000 ft on our own. By the time the confusion settled down, we were at about 11200 ft. ZLA then proceeded to give us altitude clrncs for the remainder of the arrival. Las approach then gave us vectors for a visual approach for runway 25L. We had to follow another aircraft for the visual to runway 25L, the captain did a great job building spacing between the 2 aircraft since approach did not leave us much room to work with. After we cleared the runway, we were told to give ATC a call. The captain called, and he said that ATC was not going to file a deviation against us, but wanted to know why we had descended on our own since they were having a lot of trouble with other aircraft doing the same thing. The root of the confusion stems from the following question -- when cleared for an RNAV arrival, are you cleared to meet the descent profile on your own, or do you need an additional 'cleared to descend to meet the published altitudes' type of clearance from ATC? It seems there is a lot of confusion on this issue between the ATC community and the pilot community. Callback conversation with reporter revealed the following information: reporter stated that it was the first time he had seen an RNAV arrival. When the captain started down at luxor, he advised the center they were leaving 12000 ft. He said the center instructed them to immediately climb back to 12000 ft. He said the tone of the controller indicated they were not happy when they left 12000 ft. The reporter said he has since reviewed arrival procedures and clrncs and has a better understanding of what to expect.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: MD80 LEVEL AT 12000 FT INBOUND TO LAS WERE CLRED TO THE KSINO 1 ARR WITHOUT A 'DSND VIA' AND STARTED A DSCNT AFTER LUXOR.
Narrative: WE WERE CLRED TO BETHL -- A FIX ON THE KSINO 1 ARR -- AND THEN THE KSINO 1 ARR. AT LUXOR, WE DEPARTED 12000 FT FOR THE 'AT OR ABOVE' 10000 FT ALT RESTR AT MIRAJ. SINCE THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I HAD SEEN AN RNAV ARR, I WAS SURPRISED WHEN THE CAPT STARTED OUT OF 12000 FT ON HIS OWN. HE THEN TOLD ME THAT ONCE YOU ARE CLRED FOR AN RNAV ARR, YOU ARE ALSO CLRED TO DSND AS NECESSARY TO MEET THE PUBLISHED ALT ON THE ARR. WHEN I CALLED ZLA THAT WE WERE LEAVING 12000 FT, THEY WERE UPSET THAT WE HAD DEPARTED 12000 FT ON OUR OWN. BY THE TIME THE CONFUSION SETTLED DOWN, WE WERE AT ABOUT 11200 FT. ZLA THEN PROCEEDED TO GIVE US ALT CLRNCS FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE ARR. LAS APCH THEN GAVE US VECTORS FOR A VISUAL APCH FOR RWY 25L. WE HAD TO FOLLOW ANOTHER ACFT FOR THE VISUAL TO RWY 25L, THE CAPT DID A GREAT JOB BUILDING SPACING BTWN THE 2 ACFT SINCE APCH DID NOT LEAVE US MUCH ROOM TO WORK WITH. AFTER WE CLRED THE RWY, WE WERE TOLD TO GIVE ATC A CALL. THE CAPT CALLED, AND HE SAID THAT ATC WAS NOT GOING TO FILE A DEV AGAINST US, BUT WANTED TO KNOW WHY WE HAD DSNDED ON OUR OWN SINCE THEY WERE HAVING A LOT OF TROUBLE WITH OTHER ACFT DOING THE SAME THING. THE ROOT OF THE CONFUSION STEMS FROM THE FOLLOWING QUESTION -- WHEN CLRED FOR AN RNAV ARR, ARE YOU CLRED TO MEET THE DSCNT PROFILE ON YOUR OWN, OR DO YOU NEED AN ADDITIONAL 'CLRED TO DSND TO MEET THE PUBLISHED ALTS' TYPE OF CLRNC FROM ATC? IT SEEMS THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSION ON THIS ISSUE BTWN THE ATC COMMUNITY AND THE PLT COMMUNITY. CALLBACK CONVERSATION WITH RPTR REVEALED THE FOLLOWING INFO: RPTR STATED THAT IT WAS THE FIRST TIME HE HAD SEEN AN RNAV ARR. WHEN THE CAPT STARTED DOWN AT LUXOR, HE ADVISED THE CTR THEY WERE LEAVING 12000 FT. HE SAID THE CTR INSTRUCTED THEM TO IMMEDIATELY CLB BACK TO 12000 FT. HE SAID THE TONE OF THE CTLR INDICATED THEY WERE NOT HAPPY WHEN THEY LEFT 12000 FT. THE RPTR SAID HE HAS SINCE REVIEWED ARR PROCS AND CLRNCS AND HAS A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT TO EXPECT.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.