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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 561474 |
Time | |
Date | 200209 |
Day | Fri |
Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | airport : cvg.airport |
State Reference | OH |
Altitude | msl single value : 3000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | IMC |
Weather Elements | Rain Fog |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : cvg.tracon tower : cvg.tower tracon : tpa.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | Regional Jet CL65, Undifferentiated or Other Model |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Navigation In Use | ils localizer & glide slope : 36l other |
Flight Phase | descent : approach |
Route In Use | approach : instrument precision |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Controlling Facilities | tower : cvg.tower |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | ATR 72 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | descent : approach |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Qualification | pilot : instrument pilot : commercial pilot : cfi |
ASRS Report | 561474 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Qualification | pilot : atp |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 250 flight time total : 12000 flight time type : 5000 |
ASRS Report | 561388 |
Events | |
Anomaly | non adherence : clearance non adherence : required legal separation other anomaly |
Independent Detector | atc equipment other atc equipment : radar other controllera other flight crewa other flight crewb |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance none taken : detected after the fact |
Consequence | faa : investigated |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Air Traffic Incident | Pilot Deviation |
Narrative:
During our approach clearance to runway 36L, we were instructed to maintain 170 KTS to the marker. At that point, we were told that we were approximately 4 mi in-trail of an ATR72. Being in an rj, the captain was afraid of overtaking the slower propeller aircraft. We were approximately 4-5 DME prior to the marker when he started configuring and slowing. Vref was around 138 KTS, and we were maintaining 140 KTS, 30 KTS slower than assigned. Around this point, ATC (cvg tower) queried us as to what speed we were maintaining. When I told them, they asked what speed we were assigned. We were then told to slow to approach speed. When we landed, we were told to contact the approach controller. In a discussion with the captain after he called, he restated his concern about the spacing behind the ATR, and commented that 'command authority/authorized' gave him override authority/authorized over ATC commands. What he hadn't known, but was explained to him by the controller was that runway 36L at cvg had lower than standard separation requirements because of more high-speed turnoffs. Supplemental information from acn 561388: the approach controller cleared our flight for the approach to runway 36L and to maintain 170 KTS to the marker. At that time we were approximately 5 mi behind another aircraft. Approach then had us cleared for the approach and to call tower. But now the aircraft in front was starting to slow down and when he was 3 mi ahead on the TCASII, I also started to slow down, however just outside the OM. The tower asked us what our airspeed was. When I told them 160 KTS they advised me that I was assigned 170 KTS to the marker and that they expected me to hold that speed until passing the OM, or short final. After breaking out of the overcast we noticed the aircraft in front of us still on the runway. But by the time we crossed the threshold the aircraft had cleared and we landed. After clearing the runway tower asked me to call them. When I called the tower supervisor, he informed me that approach radar can separate us with less than 3 mi. Also, when they assigned a speed they expected us to fly that speed. He told me not to use my judgement in aircraft separation, as they have approach radar and tower people that will make that call for us. If we are getting too close and need to break off the approach or to make a go around, in case the aircraft in front had not cleared the runway in time for us to land, then ATC would initiate the g-a.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: A CL65 CREW INSTRUCTED TO MAINTAIN 170 KTS SPD TO THE OM SLOW TO APCH SPD TO AVOID OVERTAKING AN ATR72 4 MI AHEAD.
Narrative: DURING OUR APCH CLRNC TO RWY 36L, WE WERE INSTRUCTED TO MAINTAIN 170 KTS TO THE MARKER. AT THAT POINT, WE WERE TOLD THAT WE WERE APPROX 4 MI IN-TRAIL OF AN ATR72. BEING IN AN RJ, THE CAPT WAS AFRAID OF OVERTAKING THE SLOWER PROP ACFT. WE WERE APPROX 4-5 DME PRIOR TO THE MARKER WHEN HE STARTED CONFIGURING AND SLOWING. VREF WAS AROUND 138 KTS, AND WE WERE MAINTAINING 140 KTS, 30 KTS SLOWER THAN ASSIGNED. AROUND THIS POINT, ATC (CVG TWR) QUERIED US AS TO WHAT SPD WE WERE MAINTAINING. WHEN I TOLD THEM, THEY ASKED WHAT SPD WE WERE ASSIGNED. WE WERE THEN TOLD TO SLOW TO APCH SPD. WHEN WE LANDED, WE WERE TOLD TO CONTACT THE APCH CTLR. IN A DISCUSSION WITH THE CAPT AFTER HE CALLED, HE RESTATED HIS CONCERN ABOUT THE SPACING BEHIND THE ATR, AND COMMENTED THAT 'COMMAND AUTH' GAVE HIM OVERRIDE AUTH OVER ATC COMMANDS. WHAT HE HADN'T KNOWN, BUT WAS EXPLAINED TO HIM BY THE CTLR WAS THAT RWY 36L AT CVG HAD LOWER THAN STANDARD SEPARATION REQUIREMENTS BECAUSE OF MORE HIGH-SPD TURNOFFS. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 561388: THE APCH CTLR CLRED OUR FLT FOR THE APCH TO RWY 36L AND TO MAINTAIN 170 KTS TO THE MARKER. AT THAT TIME WE WERE APPROX 5 MI BEHIND ANOTHER ACFT. APCH THEN HAD US CLRED FOR THE APCH AND TO CALL TWR. BUT NOW THE ACFT IN FRONT WAS STARTING TO SLOW DOWN AND WHEN HE WAS 3 MI AHEAD ON THE TCASII, I ALSO STARTED TO SLOW DOWN, HOWEVER JUST OUTSIDE THE OM. THE TWR ASKED US WHAT OUR AIRSPD WAS. WHEN I TOLD THEM 160 KTS THEY ADVISED ME THAT I WAS ASSIGNED 170 KTS TO THE MARKER AND THAT THEY EXPECTED ME TO HOLD THAT SPD UNTIL PASSING THE OM, OR SHORT FINAL. AFTER BREAKING OUT OF THE OVCST WE NOTICED THE ACFT IN FRONT OF US STILL ON THE RWY. BUT BY THE TIME WE CROSSED THE THRESHOLD THE ACFT HAD CLRED AND WE LANDED. AFTER CLRING THE RWY TWR ASKED ME TO CALL THEM. WHEN I CALLED THE TWR SUPVR, HE INFORMED ME THAT APCH RADAR CAN SEPARATE US WITH LESS THAN 3 MI. ALSO, WHEN THEY ASSIGNED A SPD THEY EXPECTED US TO FLY THAT SPD. HE TOLD ME NOT TO USE MY JUDGEMENT IN ACFT SEPARATION, AS THEY HAVE APCH RADAR AND TWR PEOPLE THAT WILL MAKE THAT CALL FOR US. IF WE ARE GETTING TOO CLOSE AND NEED TO BREAK OFF THE APCH OR TO MAKE A GAR, IN CASE THE ACFT IN FRONT HAD NOT CLRED THE RWY IN TIME FOR US TO LAND, THEN ATC WOULD INITIATE THE G-A.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.