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B737-300 crew wants to fly a fuel saving route between buf and bwi. The captain took exception for a descent to FL180 when he refused to fly victor airway radials.
| Attributes | |
| ACN | 599553 |
| Time | |
| Date | 200311 |
| Day | Mon |
| Local Time Of Day | 1801 To 2400 |
| Place | |
| Locale Reference | atc facility : zny.artcc |
| State Reference | NY |
| Altitude | msl single value : 18000 |
| Environment | |
| Flight Conditions | VMC |
| Light | Night |
| Aircraft 1 | |
| Controlling Facilities | artcc : zny.artcc |
| Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
| Make Model Name | B737-300 |
| Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
| Flight Phase | cruise : level cruise : enroute altitude change |
| Route In Use | enroute airway : v170.airway |
| Flight Plan | IFR |
| Person 1 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
| Experience | flight time last 90 days : 60 flight time total : 12000 flight time type : 8000 |
| ASRS Report | 599553 |
| Person 2 | |
| Affiliation | company : air carrier |
| Function | flight crew : first officer |
| Events | |
| Independent Detector | other flight crewa |
| Resolutory Action | none taken : detected after the fact |
| Consequence | other |
| Supplementary | |
| Problem Areas | FAA Flight Crew Human Performance Airspace Structure ATC Human Performance |
| Primary Problem | Ambiguous |
Narrative:
I thought I'd submit an as soon as possible report as well as an irregularity report to help get this problem fixed. Not sure which is appropriate. I haven't had much luck getting any answers by calling dispatch. They just say 'we'll look into it.' I've been trying for a couple of yrs now. My low altitude chart states right on the front that it's not to be used above FL180. I flew buf to bwi yesterday. The release route was: flight plan company number T/B733/R431 buf P0033 270 buf..colde..slt..seg.V170.keryn.V499.trish.bwi/0040A. During climb as we approached FL180, I asked center to give us a direct routing so we could be legal. He cleared us direct seg direct trish direct bwi. Super. I then asked if we could get a little higher than FL270 to save some gas. He cleared us to FL290. Even more super. When he handed us off to the next controller (can't remember if he was new york, boston, or washington), and he said 'stand by to copy new routing.' he then read us: 'after seg, V170, V499, trish, bwi.' I read it back and then said that we couldn't fly the victor rtes because we were above FL180. He then told us to descend to FL180. Bummer. I had direct routing at FL290 and now I'm at FL180 on victor rtes. So much for saving gas. When I asked clearance delivery about our clearance, he stated that he knew that it was not legal, but 'that's how air carrier X files it every day.' with 7 flts a day from buf to bwi for who knows how many yrs, surely I'm not the only guy that has complained about a routing that is not legal. (Victor rtes above FL180.) it's not just buf/bwi either. I just flew mdw to ind and was filed victor rtes. I had not problem getting direct though so I didn't have to fly as filed. I have had very little success in getting legal routing that can save fuel on the buf to bwi leg. I have tried several times to get dispatch to change the routing, but haven't had any luck.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: B737-300 CREW WANTS TO FLY A FUEL SAVING RTE BTWN BUF AND BWI. THE CAPT TOOK EXCEPTION FOR A DSCNT TO FL180 WHEN HE REFUSED TO FLY VICTOR AIRWAY RADIALS.
Narrative: I THOUGHT I'D SUBMIT AN ASAP RPT AS WELL AS AN IRREGULARITY RPT TO HELP GET THIS PROB FIXED. NOT SURE WHICH IS APPROPRIATE. I HAVEN'T HAD MUCH LUCK GETTING ANY ANSWERS BY CALLING DISPATCH. THEY JUST SAY 'WE'LL LOOK INTO IT.' I'VE BEEN TRYING FOR A COUPLE OF YRS NOW. MY LOW ALT CHART STATES RIGHT ON THE FRONT THAT IT'S NOT TO BE USED ABOVE FL180. I FLEW BUF TO BWI YESTERDAY. THE RELEASE RTE WAS: FLT PLAN COMPANY NUMBER T/B733/R431 BUF P0033 270 BUF..COLDE..SLT..SEG.V170.KERYN.V499.TRISH.BWI/0040A. DURING CLB AS WE APCHED FL180, I ASKED CTR TO GIVE US A DIRECT ROUTING SO WE COULD BE LEGAL. HE CLRED US DIRECT SEG DIRECT TRISH DIRECT BWI. SUPER. I THEN ASKED IF WE COULD GET A LITTLE HIGHER THAN FL270 TO SAVE SOME GAS. HE CLRED US TO FL290. EVEN MORE SUPER. WHEN HE HANDED US OFF TO THE NEXT CTLR (CAN'T REMEMBER IF HE WAS NEW YORK, BOSTON, OR WASHINGTON), AND HE SAID 'STAND BY TO COPY NEW ROUTING.' HE THEN READ US: 'AFTER SEG, V170, V499, TRISH, BWI.' I READ IT BACK AND THEN SAID THAT WE COULDN'T FLY THE VICTOR RTES BECAUSE WE WERE ABOVE FL180. HE THEN TOLD US TO DSND TO FL180. BUMMER. I HAD DIRECT ROUTING AT FL290 AND NOW I'M AT FL180 ON VICTOR RTES. SO MUCH FOR SAVING GAS. WHEN I ASKED CLRNC DELIVERY ABOUT OUR CLRNC, HE STATED THAT HE KNEW THAT IT WAS NOT LEGAL, BUT 'THAT'S HOW ACR X FILES IT EVERY DAY.' WITH 7 FLTS A DAY FROM BUF TO BWI FOR WHO KNOWS HOW MANY YRS, SURELY I'M NOT THE ONLY GUY THAT HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT A ROUTING THAT IS NOT LEGAL. (VICTOR RTES ABOVE FL180.) IT'S NOT JUST BUF/BWI EITHER. I JUST FLEW MDW TO IND AND WAS FILED VICTOR RTES. I HAD NOT PROB GETTING DIRECT THOUGH SO I DIDN'T HAVE TO FLY AS FILED. I HAVE HAD VERY LITTLE SUCCESS IN GETTING LEGAL ROUTING THAT CAN SAVE FUEL ON THE BUF TO BWI LEG. I HAVE TRIED SEVERAL TIMES TO GET DISPATCH TO CHANGE THE ROUTING, BUT HAVEN'T HAD ANY LUCK.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.