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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 622516 |
Time | |
Date | 200406 |
Day | Mon |
Local Time Of Day | 0001 To 0600 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | atc facility : zzzz.artcc |
State Reference | FO |
Altitude | msl single value : 31000 |
Environment | |
Light | Night |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | artcc : zzz.artcc tower : mia.tower |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | B767-300 and 300 ER |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | cruise : level |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Person 1 | |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 250 flight time total : 11300 flight time type : 5000 |
ASRS Report | 622516 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
Experience | flight time last 90 days : 180 flight time total : 12000 flight time type : 600 |
ASRS Report | 622503 |
Events | |
Anomaly | aircraft equipment problem : less severe |
Independent Detector | aircraft equipment other aircraft equipment : rudder trim indicator other flight crewa other flight crewb |
Resolutory Action | controller : issued new clearance controller : provided flight assist flight crew : diverted to another airport flight crew : landed as precaution other |
Consequence | other other |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | Aircraft Flight Crew Human Performance |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Narrative:
In cruise flight at FL310, I tried to trim the rudder before going on my scheduled rest break. I got no response from the rudder trim either with the autoplt engaged or disengaged. There was also no rudder pedal movement or rudder trim scale movement. I asked the captain to try, and she also got no response. A conference call was set up with maintenance controller and dispatch. Maintenance controller advised to pull 3 different circuit breakers, still no response. At that point, maintenance controller advised no other checklist or procedures. In my opinion, at this point the captain became unsettled. I advocated continuing to ZZZ. The captain did not really listen to my reasoning. She had already made up her mind to land the aircraft. The relief pilot also advocated continuing to ZZZ still to no avail. Once the decision was made, we supported the captain in order to land the aircraft safely. We turned around and landed at ZZZZ where we had our own staff, maintenance, hotel, xportation, etc. Supplemental information from acn 622517: I did not need to land for this problem and advocated that. I thought we could safely continue the flight. Despite both the first officer's arguments that this was unnecessary, the captain insisted that this was not comfortable and that we needed to land. I did feel from a clear perspective that the decision had already been made before I returned to the cockpit and that input was not heard. We landed safely back in ZZZZ, however, with substantial and I believe unnecessary inconvenience to our passenger. Supplemental information from acn 622503: I asked the maintenance controller if the rudder trim was an MEL item. He replied that it was required for takeoff, but that we were airborne now and that it was pretty much the comfort level of the crew as to whether or not we continued. I informed him that I wasn't comfortable taking the aircraft all the way to iad, but that I wanted to discuss the issue with the other 2 pilots. I just took my first simulator check on the B757/767 this past april, but both first officer's had said that they had been on the aircraft for 6 or 7 yrs. The relief pilot returned to the flight deck at this point. She said that she had flown a tanker in the military and they didn't even have rudder trim on the aircraft, so she wasn't uncomfortable about going all the way to ZZZ with the rudder trim inoperative. I think that I offended her because I told her that this wasn't that aircraft that she had flown in the military and that we were flying an aircraft that was designed to be flown with rudder trim. My position was, that I knew with both engines running we were alright, but if we lost an engine we would be putting ourselves into an overwhelmingly demanding position with only manual inputs to keep the airplane flying straight. We didn't know what broke within the rudder trim system or that it won't get even more bizarre by commanding something other than being frozen, ie, full uncommanded throw of the rudder before we land. I felt that the safest choice was for us to land within 3 hours and not push our luck by flying another 7 hours, based on the information that I had available to me at that time. Upon landing in ZZZ, the mechanic that met our aircraft informed us that there had been a previous write-up on the rudder trim and that because of that fact, the rudder actuator would have to be replaced.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: B767-300 CAPT RETURNED TO THEIR DEP ARPT AFTER DISCOVERING THE RUDDER TRIM WOULD NOT ACTUATE, IN SOUTH AMERICA.
Narrative: IN CRUISE FLT AT FL310, I TRIED TO TRIM THE RUDDER BEFORE GOING ON MY SCHEDULED REST BREAK. I GOT NO RESPONSE FROM THE RUDDER TRIM EITHER WITH THE AUTOPLT ENGAGED OR DISENGAGED. THERE WAS ALSO NO RUDDER PEDAL MOVEMENT OR RUDDER TRIM SCALE MOVEMENT. I ASKED THE CAPT TO TRY, AND SHE ALSO GOT NO RESPONSE. A CONFERENCE CALL WAS SET UP WITH MAINT CTLR AND DISPATCH. MAINT CTLR ADVISED TO PULL 3 DIFFERENT CIRCUIT BREAKERS, STILL NO RESPONSE. AT THAT POINT, MAINT CTLR ADVISED NO OTHER CHKLIST OR PROCS. IN MY OPINION, AT THIS POINT THE CAPT BECAME UNSETTLED. I ADVOCATED CONTINUING TO ZZZ. THE CAPT DID NOT REALLY LISTEN TO MY REASONING. SHE HAD ALREADY MADE UP HER MIND TO LAND THE ACFT. THE RELIEF PLT ALSO ADVOCATED CONTINUING TO ZZZ STILL TO NO AVAIL. ONCE THE DECISION WAS MADE, WE SUPPORTED THE CAPT IN ORDER TO LAND THE ACFT SAFELY. WE TURNED AROUND AND LANDED AT ZZZZ WHERE WE HAD OUR OWN STAFF, MAINT, HOTEL, XPORTATION, ETC. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 622517: I DID NOT NEED TO LAND FOR THIS PROB AND ADVOCATED THAT. I THOUGHT WE COULD SAFELY CONTINUE THE FLT. DESPITE BOTH THE FO'S ARGUMENTS THAT THIS WAS UNNECESSARY, THE CAPT INSISTED THAT THIS WAS NOT COMFORTABLE AND THAT WE NEEDED TO LAND. I DID FEEL FROM A CLR PERSPECTIVE THAT THE DECISION HAD ALREADY BEEN MADE BEFORE I RETURNED TO THE COCKPIT AND THAT INPUT WAS NOT HEARD. WE LANDED SAFELY BACK IN ZZZZ, HOWEVER, WITH SUBSTANTIAL AND I BELIEVE UNNECESSARY INCONVENIENCE TO OUR PAX. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 622503: I ASKED THE MAINT CTLR IF THE RUDDER TRIM WAS AN MEL ITEM. HE REPLIED THAT IT WAS REQUIRED FOR TKOF, BUT THAT WE WERE AIRBORNE NOW AND THAT IT WAS PRETTY MUCH THE COMFORT LEVEL OF THE CREW AS TO WHETHER OR NOT WE CONTINUED. I INFORMED HIM THAT I WASN'T COMFORTABLE TAKING THE ACFT ALL THE WAY TO IAD, BUT THAT I WANTED TO DISCUSS THE ISSUE WITH THE OTHER 2 PLTS. I JUST TOOK MY FIRST SIMULATOR CHK ON THE B757/767 THIS PAST APRIL, BUT BOTH FO'S HAD SAID THAT THEY HAD BEEN ON THE ACFT FOR 6 OR 7 YRS. THE RELIEF PLT RETURNED TO THE FLT DECK AT THIS POINT. SHE SAID THAT SHE HAD FLOWN A TANKER IN THE MIL AND THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE RUDDER TRIM ON THE ACFT, SO SHE WASN'T UNCOMFORTABLE ABOUT GOING ALL THE WAY TO ZZZ WITH THE RUDDER TRIM INOP. I THINK THAT I OFFENDED HER BECAUSE I TOLD HER THAT THIS WASN'T THAT ACFT THAT SHE HAD FLOWN IN THE MIL AND THAT WE WERE FLYING AN ACFT THAT WAS DESIGNED TO BE FLOWN WITH RUDDER TRIM. MY POS WAS, THAT I KNEW WITH BOTH ENGS RUNNING WE WERE ALRIGHT, BUT IF WE LOST AN ENG WE WOULD BE PUTTING OURSELVES INTO AN OVERWHELMINGLY DEMANDING POS WITH ONLY MANUAL INPUTS TO KEEP THE AIRPLANE FLYING STRAIGHT. WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT BROKE WITHIN THE RUDDER TRIM SYS OR THAT IT WON'T GET EVEN MORE BIZARRE BY COMMANDING SOMETHING OTHER THAN BEING FROZEN, IE, FULL UNCOMMANDED THROW OF THE RUDDER BEFORE WE LAND. I FELT THAT THE SAFEST CHOICE WAS FOR US TO LAND WITHIN 3 HRS AND NOT PUSH OUR LUCK BY FLYING ANOTHER 7 HRS, BASED ON THE INFO THAT I HAD AVAILABLE TO ME AT THAT TIME. UPON LNDG IN ZZZ, THE MECH THAT MET OUR ACFT INFORMED US THAT THERE HAD BEEN A PREVIOUS WRITE-UP ON THE RUDDER TRIM AND THAT BECAUSE OF THAT FACT, THE RUDDER ACTUATOR WOULD HAVE TO BE REPLACED.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.