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|
Attributes | |
ACN | 634795 |
Time | |
Date | 200410 |
Day | Fri |
Local Time Of Day | 0601 To 1200 |
Place | |
Locale Reference | intersection : turtl |
State Reference | CA |
Altitude | msl bound lower : 14000 msl bound upper : 16000 |
Environment | |
Flight Conditions | VMC |
Light | Daylight |
Aircraft 1 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : sct.tracon |
Operator | common carrier : air carrier |
Make Model Name | B767-200 |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 121 |
Flight Phase | descent : intermediate altitude descent : approach |
Route In Use | arrival star : paradise |
Flight Plan | IFR |
Aircraft 2 | |
Controlling Facilities | tracon : sct.tracon |
Operator | other |
Make Model Name | Hornet (F-18) |
Operating Under FAR Part | Part 91 |
Flight Phase | cruise : enroute altitude change cruise : level |
Person 1 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : captain oversight : pic |
ASRS Report | 634795 |
Person 2 | |
Affiliation | company : air carrier |
Function | flight crew : first officer |
ASRS Report | 634799 |
Events | |
Anomaly | conflict : airborne critical non adherence : published procedure non adherence : far non adherence : required legal separation |
Independent Detector | aircraft equipment : tcas other flight crewa other flight crewb |
Resolutory Action | flight crew : took evasive action |
Supplementary | |
Problem Areas | ATC Human Performance Flight Crew Human Performance |
Primary Problem | Flight Crew Human Performance |
Narrative:
First I don't remember the altitude, but it was within the prescribed altitudes on the paradise arrival at lax. Descending on the paradise 4 arrival we received a TA, then an RA to 'climb.' we complied and I saw an airliner below us, thinking that was the problem. Then all at once we got 'descend, descend.' we complied with that. Looked to the left and saw 2 F18's coming toward us. They were getting closer and closer. Finally I made a sharp right turn and avoided them. We advised ATC who never knew of any problem. My opinion is that the original 'climb' warning was from the closest fighter, and the 'descend' was from the higher one, who was above him. The higher one had his gear down. We both thought that unusual at that altitude and thought that he might have had a gear problem. His wingman (closer to us) was apparently looking at him and never saw us until the last second. We did see them pull up after we turned and descended. Once again, we reported it and the deviations, but ATC didn't seem to think that there was any problem. Supplemental information from acn 634799: on PDZ4 arrival into lax, at approximately 16000 ft MSL, we received a TA for traffic at 11 O'clock position, pretty much level. Visually picked up 2 F18's. TCASII commanded climb which we followed initially. F18's started climbing too. Since we were not deconflicting we initiated a descending right turn to avoid a midair. TCASII updated itself with command to descend. One F18 passed high and behind and the other passed high and in front. They appeared to be working some kind of gear problem because the one that passed in front had his gear hanging.
Original NASA ASRS Text
Title: B767-200ER CREW AND 2 F18 ACFT HAD A CONFLICT IN SCT CLASS E, ON THE PARADISE FOUR STAR.
Narrative: FIRST I DON'T REMEMBER THE ALT, BUT IT WAS WITHIN THE PRESCRIBED ALTS ON THE PARADISE ARR AT LAX. DSNDING ON THE PARADISE 4 ARR WE RECEIVED A TA, THEN AN RA TO 'CLB.' WE COMPLIED AND I SAW AN AIRLINER BELOW US, THINKING THAT WAS THE PROB. THEN ALL AT ONCE WE GOT 'DSND, DSND.' WE COMPLIED WITH THAT. LOOKED TO THE L AND SAW 2 F18'S COMING TOWARD US. THEY WERE GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER. FINALLY I MADE A SHARP R TURN AND AVOIDED THEM. WE ADVISED ATC WHO NEVER KNEW OF ANY PROB. MY OPINION IS THAT THE ORIGINAL 'CLB' WARNING WAS FROM THE CLOSEST FIGHTER, AND THE 'DSND' WAS FROM THE HIGHER ONE, WHO WAS ABOVE HIM. THE HIGHER ONE HAD HIS GEAR DOWN. WE BOTH THOUGHT THAT UNUSUAL AT THAT ALT AND THOUGHT THAT HE MIGHT HAVE HAD A GEAR PROB. HIS WINGMAN (CLOSER TO US) WAS APPARENTLY LOOKING AT HIM AND NEVER SAW US UNTIL THE LAST SECOND. WE DID SEE THEM PULL UP AFTER WE TURNED AND DSNDED. ONCE AGAIN, WE RPTED IT AND THE DEVS, BUT ATC DIDN'T SEEM TO THINK THAT THERE WAS ANY PROB. SUPPLEMENTAL INFO FROM ACN 634799: ON PDZ4 ARR INTO LAX, AT APPROX 16000 FT MSL, WE RECEIVED A TA FOR TFC AT 11 O'CLOCK POS, PRETTY MUCH LEVEL. VISUALLY PICKED UP 2 F18'S. TCASII COMMANDED CLB WHICH WE FOLLOWED INITIALLY. F18'S STARTED CLBING TOO. SINCE WE WERE NOT DECONFLICTING WE INITIATED A DSNDING R TURN TO AVOID A MIDAIR. TCASII UPDATED ITSELF WITH COMMAND TO DSND. ONE F18 PASSED HIGH AND BEHIND AND THE OTHER PASSED HIGH AND IN FRONT. THEY APPEARED TO BE WORKING SOME KIND OF GEAR PROB BECAUSE THE ONE THAT PASSED IN FRONT HAD HIS GEAR HANGING.
Data retrieved from NASA's ASRS site as of July 2007 and automatically converted to unabbreviated mixed upper/lowercase text. This report is for informational purposes with no guarantee of accuracy. See NASA's ASRS site for official report.